Opinion: Guest column
Words for ASM’s new leaders
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Also by Chynna Haas:
- Words for ASM's new leaders (May 5, 2009)
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“Due to my numerous personal, academic and organizational responsibilities, I have decided to step down from any and all leadership capacities in the progressive slate. I will continue to stay on as an L&S Candidate, but will not be continuing any of my leadership obligations. … Please let me know if you have any questions, but please also accept the difficulty of the position that I am currently in.”
On March 24 — two days before the filing deadline for Associated Students of Madison’s spring elections — I sent this e-mail to a core group of FACES leaders. Though I cited too many commitments as my reason for stepping down, it was not the truth. Rather, as Sam Clegg put it, I was “squelched” out of the slate. Though I do not wish to dwell on those unpleasant couple weeks, I do wish to set the record straight and offer some advice to the FACES slate and the Responsibility slate as they vie for power in ASM’s 16th Session.
Understanding my departure from FACES requires me to explain how I became a “leftist front kid” (thanks, College Republicans, for that name). The first time I met Kyle Szarzynski was in late September while I was lobbying for SSFC funding on behalf of the Working Class Student Union. I crossed paths with him again in mid-November after I was tapped to serve as Michael Johnson’s campaign treasurer in his bid for District 8 alder.
By early December, he dropped out of the race, so Kyle and other SPD members approached me to take Michael’s place, which I temporarily accepted pending further thought on my part. After discussing the opportunity with the SPD members, I realized it would not be my own candidacy but strictly a Progressive Dane campaign, and I would be expected to say and vote how I was told. For this reason, as well as my desire to return to my hometown after graduation in May 2010, I decided not to run.
It was at this point that the low hum about ASM’s proposed constitution became a roaring alarm in the student organization world, so my Campus Women’s Center co-workers and I turned our attention to this issue. We compiled our concerns, gathered the concerns of the GSSF organizations and sought the input of Kyle — a sympathetic SSFC member — and his organization, Student Progressive Dane. With these actions, the Vote No Coalition was born.
At some point during all of this, I ended up in a metaphorical boat with Kyle Szarzynski, as demonstrated by the campus media and blogosphere’s discussion of the coalition. Trouble was brewing on the horizon and I should have seen it coming — our conversations overflowed initially with misunderstandings and eventually with significant tension regarding the progressive slate’s methods. I am a strong proponent of fostering grassroots organizing and using it as the basis of the work within ASM, in addition to guidance for meetings and work with UW administrators, while Kyle feels we would be better served by relying almost entirely on grassroots organizing and barely on the support of administrators. My stance is the most realistic option for a student government to take, while Kyle viewed it as selling out to anti-grassroots organizers, such as former ASM Chair Brittany Wiegand and members of the administration.
Regardless of the tension, the show had to go on; so with the constitutional victory under our belt, we jumped headfirst into our Vote No campaign promise — the formation of a progressive slate. We blended the information from informal discussions and our initial December 2008 meeting with lessons learned through the Vote No victory, developing the initial structure and mission of the slate. We moved from an informal campaign structure that left us burnt out after the Vote No campaign to a slightly more formal structure that allowed core members to bottom-line specific components of the campaign, such as outreach, communication, volunteer, finance, candidates and research. I agreed to work on outreach, capitalizing on the relationships we had fostered during the previous campaign and my reputation in the GSSF world.
As the new campaign progressed, we recruited several qualified candidates, reconnected with our organizational allies and developed new volunteer outreach materials. We were more prepared and organized than any of our opponents, nearly guaranteeing a sweeping victory in the impending elections. Despite all of this, the internal bickering and power plays cut our legs out from under us. Beginning on March 22, I started receiving a series of antagonistic e-mails from Kyle, where he critiqued my leadership style and involvement in the slate, as well as blamed me for the overall direction it was taking. Before delving into this final e-mail exchange, there are a few factual things to note:
Just before the exchange began, Kyle, as well as two other core FACES leaders associated with him, decided to step back from FACES to focus on their other campaign work.
Before the Vote No Coalition even began, there were a series of conversations between Kyle and I on who would serve as ASM’s leadership. To confirm a consensus on the subject, I e-mailed Kyle on Dec. 9, stating should the ASM constitution pass, I would run for president and, should it fail, I would run for chair.
Beginning in January 2009 and culminating in this exchange in March, Kyle and I engaged in a series of confrontational, ridiculous e-mail exchanges regarding the Vote No Coalition and the progressive slate. The night of the Vote No victory, I asked Kyle to please agree to no longer send e-mails when there is a conflict but rather to call me or discuss the issue in person. Kyle agreed.
I ignored the first message. Then I replied to the second message by asking him to have no further contact with me. I then ignored the third antagonistic message I received. It was at this point that I weighed my options to determine what would be best for the slate and myself. Based on the e-mails, as well as several conversations he had with other FACES leaders, I determined that it would be best for me to step down from a leadership capacity, which is when I sent the e-mail that began this column.
As the tension continued to rise as another FACES leader resigned and more fiery e-mails were circulated, I decided it would be in the best interest of the slate if I did not run on it. My logic was I would still support FACES and their platform; I would just campaign separately, limiting the opportunities for conflict that would arise between three FACES members and I. Unfortunately, this idea leaked to the core leaders and they saw it as a self-serving move that put me in opposition to the slate. It was at this point that it was made clear that, if I ran, every effort would be made by FACES to campaign against my bid for an L&S seat and, if I somehow won a seat, every effort would be made to halt my bid for the position of ASM chair, despite this being the original agreement of the progressive slate.
By the next day, March 25, I made my final decision to step down from the Student Council race altogether, sending the following message to a core group of my supporters: “Even if I run outside of the slate, my initiatives and work will be derailed, which would be detrimental to this campus. I hope that the qualified candidates I helped recruit will still run and that the handful of polarizing characters will not prevent our student body from achieving crucial victories in the coming year.”
Deciding not to run for ASM Student Council was an incredibly difficult decision. I loved serving over this past semester. I had little to gain from seeking appointment or running for a second term — I have significant leadership experiences already under my belt, and the time spent doing council work could be better spent on my academics. Running for council was not a selfish endeavor; it was me finding an involvement opportunity that I enjoyed and that afforded me the chance to talk to numerous students on campus that I otherwise would never have met.
I wanted to run for chair not because it would make me look good or because I would be able to spend time with administrators but because I felt I was qualified and would do a great job representing students. I am by no means “in the pocket of the administrators,” or “anti-grassroots,” but rather I am a realist. I believe the most effective ASM chair would not only utilize grassroots efforts to educate, mobilize and empower the student body but also simultaneously work with administrators to bring the voices and concerns of students to their tables. An effective chair will not be anti-grassroots or anti-administration because either option will entirely halt student victories.
Numerous constituents told me they were confused, saddened and concerned when they learned I was not seeking another term in Student Council, for this I appreciate the opportunity to go on record and share to the truth about why I decided not to run. I hope those who were elected to the 16th Session of the Associated Students of Madison will act in the best interests of all students and work together to find solutions that will better the lives of UW students. It is this last point that leaves me concerned based on the first Student Council meeting of the 16th Session that took place last Friday. Its purpose was to appoint the new ASM leadership, though several individuals present — both FACES, Responsibility, unaffiliated and non-members — shared that it was essentially a gridlock in electing the new chair.
I will spare you the gritty details of what happened at the meeting and where things stand because, in all honesty, they are a mess. Instead, I want to share who I would like to see as ASM’s leadership in the 16th Session. As one of the key organizers of Vote No and initial organizers in the progressive slate, as well as a former Student Council member, I have worked with most of the candidates firsthand and can give a balanced opinion on the matter. With that said, I support Tom Templeton (Responsibility) as vice chair and Theotis Sharpe (FACES) as Nominations Board chair. Each has their strength — Templeton with vast ASM experience and a strong sense of professionalism, and Sharpe as a person of great character with excellent organizational connections.
I do not feel comfortable endorsing either Tyler Junger or Brian Benford for chair. Though each has commendable experience, I have significant concerns about their relevant overall understanding of ASM’s structure, as well as their susceptibility to influence. Both Junger and Benford are well-intentioned and trusting individuals, which make them great people and attentive leaders, but I am left with concerns based on the makeup of the slates. Behind the scenes of both FACES and Responsibility there are strong individuals pulling the strings, and this leaves me concerned that the lack of concrete ASM experience of each candidate will force them to rely on these powerful individuals and allow each to fall prey to their agendas. Regarding the position of SSFC chair, I strongly encourage Junger to seek this position if he does not win his current bid.
It is imperative for the success and sustainability of ASM that these two slates do not seek to dominate Council, but rather to work together in the best interest of students. Even though I was vocal in forming FACES, after seeing the final product of the two slates, my wish is that they would both disband.
With this, I offer some advice to the members of the FACES and Responsibility slates. I am certain that you are talented, ambitious, intelligent, creative and passionate, which means your constituents are lucky to have you. That being said, you are on a metaphorical boat with the leaders of your slate (you know who they are). I’ve been there and I can promise you that it is only a matter of time before they will throw you overboard. You can get out now and make it to a lifeboat, or wait for them to push you over and then you will be left to find a piece of driftwood to latch onto.
Chynna Haas
Working Class Student Union
Founder & President
ASM Student Council
Former Letters and Sciences Representative
chynnahaas@gmail.com
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Countdown to Kyle Szarzynski’s freak out? T-minus 10 minutes. Wait for it, folks. The end to a perfect year =) Great editorial, Chynna.
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Wait, so the Szar isn’t the innocent, victimized progressive proponent of the left he touts himself to be? He’s a conniving bully? Who would have guessed….oh, wait.
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kyle, you got some explaining to do
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A very entertaining read, thanks for your story Chynna.
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Chynna, I have the e-mail you wrote as you why you didn’t run for Alder, and it clearly states that you didn’t run because you felt you would be doing it not out of some desire to make the community better, but because of your political aspirations. You felt you would be running for the wrong reasons. I commended and appreciated your honesty.
This letter, on the other hand, shows how much of a political hack you really are. I’ve lost all respect for you.
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What the? did you guys need to fill space? How in the world do you let this pass for an opinion piece? She basically just rambled on about her dealins with Kyle S, personal feelings, some groups she was in. Does eveyrone get to write a rambling letter about how they spent the last month of their lives? Know how you should have known to edit this down? How often the pronoun “I” appears.
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10 bucks says that Chynna’s gonna receive another one of those antagonistic emails today.
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This is the most dishonest and self-congratulatory account of campus politics I think I have ever read.
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“but strictly a Progressive Dane campaign, and I would be expected to say and vote how I was told”
I’m sorry if you were given that impression, but that’s simply not true. While Progressive Dane does have a platform, and endorses candidate’s that agree with most (or even all) of its positions (as does any other organization), saying a candidate would be expected to vote “[as told]” is incorrect. Not to mention that due to the decentralized nature of PD, there wouldn’t really even be a single directing entity to tell anyone what to do (what with the two co-chairs, a steering committee, and various other committees). I was under the impression that you were interested in Beloit city politics and that you had planned to move back there after graduation, which would ruled out the Madison city council. That’s what you said in the Capital Times (I think?).
I’m not really that close to campus politics, so I have no idea who said what or what else might have happened, but I wish you the best of luck in the future in any case.
lukas diaz
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This is absolutely disgusting. How you would write this self-important and self-congratulatory 1500 word piece is beyond anyone’s understanding. Find something else in your life to affirm yourself. This is just pathetic.
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Of course Lukas Diaz, the PD steering committee member would come on here and defend his organization. You’ve done a great job becoming irrelevant lately, why not stick around and lead some more?
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@2:17AM…except for maybe all of the czar’s articles?
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Wow you are an awful human being, Chynna.
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the madison socialist civil wars begin!!
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Lukas,
While I’m sure you know quite a bit about the overall setup of Progressive Dane, saying that you’re not very close to campus politics is evidently very true. What your saying is probably very true for Progressive Dane politics and general, but not the version that has been implemented on campus. There is a reason that PD no longer has seats in Districts 2 and 8 and the reasons lie very close to campus.
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“Kyle and other SPD members approached me to take Michael’s place, which I temporarily accepted pending further thought on my part. After discussing the opportunity with the SPD members, I realized it would not be my own candidacy but strictly a Progressive Dane campaign, and I would be expected to say and vote how I was told. For this reason, as well as my desire to return to my hometown after graduation in May 2010, I decided not to run.”
This is completely ingenious and utterly untrue. SPD made it abundantly clear to Chynna that were she to seek the PD endorsement she would receive logistical and policy support, but that the campaign would ultimately be hers to shape and lead. In fact, one of the primary reasons Chynna was asked to run was her perceived record of developing innovative ideas within various organizations, a skill set which would be invaluable to someone looking to make a difference on the issues they cared about on the city council.
The above fabrication on Chynna’s part shows that this oped was just an excuse to slander an entire organization and one of its members. The truth is that Chynna’s departure from FACES was completely voluntary and nothing proves this more than when she herself states that “Just before the exchange began, Kyle, as well as two other core FACES leaders associated with him, decided to step back from FACES to focus on their other campaign work.”
Finally, Chynna’s true intentions also become clear when she implies that members of FACES are nothing more than pawns for nefarious individuals behind the scenes. Anyone who was involved with the FACES slate (including Chynna), knows that the platform and organizing discussions were extremely open environments where any progressive idea for ASM was welcomed. It is therefore extremely insulting to those of us who worked very hard to win seats on the council for her to imply that our efforts were in the service of anything other than our own collective vision for a better ASM.
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If Kyle “freaks out” its because the only “conniving” person in this whole scenario is Chynna Haas.
Boo to the Badger Herald for even writing this drivel.
Isn’t it obvious that this article of unprecedented length for an outside LTE was an attempt of the Editorial Board and Chynna to tip the elections later today a certain way? Its just sickening.
Finally, I’ve worked with Chynna in other capacities in the past, and let me just say that this isn’t the first time that she’s “abandoned ship” once a project no longer served her personal ambitions. She’s an OPPORTUNIST!
Keep up the good work FACES! Don’t let this hater interfere with the good vibes.
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Damn! Looks like Chynna got burned in that campus romance. Ouch!
Hope you get through it, Chynna. But next time maybe the Badger Herald Opinion section isn’t the best place to broadcast details of your personal vendettas.
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Nobody cares about your beef Chynna. Get over it. You’re not that important.
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@1:52 - for campus politics, this is a pretty big scandal my friend. I feel safe to assume that Chynna has proof to back up her claims. I also would not put it past Kyle to try to manipulate the system. Did you read his email that got posted on the critical badger about trying to democratically take over ASM? here’s a link. http://thecriticalbadger.wordpress.com/2009/03/24/honors-society-what-a-joke/#comments We all know Kyle had a vision … or continues to have them …
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2:48 - Kyle, you might as well just comment with your name. Or at least attempt to modify your style of writing?
There is much documented proof of your comments on various blogs and publicized emails of your visions for the “progressive” takeover of ASM, dating far before the formation of FACES in its current incarnation. Stop pretending you had no agenda. Check the second comment on the Critical Badger blog about this article for one example, ladies and gentleman - although I’m sure you’ve already seen it, Kyle.
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I’m not sure what is more repulsive: This fictitious article, in which Chynna attempts to smear the entire FACES slate in an attempt to get herself attention, or the Herald’s decision to print it. Both should be ashamed.
I have written a post on the UW leftist blog in response to Chynna’s lies. It corrects the record on all of the untruths written above.
And Chynna, one more thing. I hope writing this article was worth it; I hope you now feel important enough to stop derailing the efforts of real activists on campus. I hope you feel good about betraying myself, Brian, Jonah and the rest of the FACES slate. You should feel proud.
http://forwardthinkinginmadison.blogspot.com/2009/05/necessary-response-to-lies-and-self.html
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“Anonymous (May 5, 2009 @ 2:17am):
This is the most dishonest and self-congratulatory account of campus politics I think I have ever read.”
apparently you’re not familiar with campus politics.
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Wow, why was this even printed? This has no business being in opinion since its just a cheap attack on a group of ASM members. Chynna is just looking to settle political scores.
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Chynna, do yourself a favor and find a hobby.
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kyle and michael johnson: stop writing comments over and over and over again
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also kyle, since when are you the “leftist blog” in town? you’re a self-righteous dick to everyone that disagrees with you. you don’t represent the left anymore than you represent women.
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2:48 - That’s because the FACES members are just pawns.
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Kyle, like most leftist men, just can’t handle women who won’t shut up and do what they’re told.
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(Quote drawn from Kyle’s blog post)
“[M]embers of WUD who worked with her on Take Back the Night … described her as a person who has no capacity to work on a cooperative endeavor of any kind.”
The WUD members in question are only making noise because they don’t grasp what a profoundly Bad Idea they were trying to run with. Take Back the Night isn’t about jamming lecture halls and never has been. I’d think less of a TBTN organizer who didn’t lock down such an endeavor.
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hahahah, 9:05 to 9:09 are all the same person. one of the maybe three anti-kyle nutcases that trolls around these parts. thanks for stopping by!
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Go Chynna! Kyle’s got some ass to cover! Can I get a “you fucked up! you fucked up” for Kyle?
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To assert that Chynna is “derailing the efforts of ‘real’ activists” on campus is probably one of the most absurd and laughable things I’ve read in a long time. Get a life.
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9:07, add adam breihan to that list
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I love when the socialists form circular firing squads. And can someone PLEASE give Kyle a haircut?
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“hahahah, 9:05 to 9:09 are all the same person. one of the maybe three anti-kyle nutcases that trolls around these parts. thanks for stopping by!”
I just woke up and read through all the comments. Regardless of the article, I still think he is a doucher, and I have not evenmet him in person. I’d tell him straight up he is though.
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OK, so now Chynna is taking revenge on everyone in SPD by calling them out by name on the Herald board. Too bad for you Chynna. There was a reason no one sided with you when you left FACES. Time to move on now.
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@10:38
she tried to move on, Kyle and his comrades would not let it go
Also Kyle you realize you took paragraphs to explain how humble you are on that blog post, I hope the irony is not lost
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Yes, we’re imperfect; yes, we going to offend folks sometimes; yes, some (me, Chynna, Kyle, you) of us are self-aggrandizing pompous assholes. If we weren’t, then we wouldn’t be qualified to run for elected office.
Folks who run for office all have one shared flaw — a crippling need for others’ approval. Sometimes we’re lucky enough for elected officials to also be imbued with great intelligence and a sense of responsibility (us?), but we’re foolish to expect our elected officials to be anything but narcissists.
If we expect to be effective members of this student government (do we really expect that any more) we need first be ok with our own narcissism, and allow others to accuse us of such, and then be ok with the rest of everyone’s narcissism, and put it past us.
If we expect to be part of a new political movement, we need to engage our opponents (they are not our enemies, to borrow a phrase from Paul Ryan) both on our strengths and our weaknesses. But we need to end the self-serving, self-righteous rage with which we attack our perceived enemies.
Then again, we’re college students, college progressives even. Why expect anything of us then the bare minimum?
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“hahahah, 9:05 to 9:09 are all the same person. one of the maybe three anti-kyle nutcases that trolls around these parts. thanks for stopping by!”
Actually, 9:08 wasn’t. Don’t know about the other ones though, they might be the same person.
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Hey guys: No one cares, except the 5 of you.
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You guys need to settle down. Put this behind you and focus on the task at hand. You can’t change what was said or done. I will be disappointed if there is still a “great divide” on council tonight; meaning no ties. Pick your leaders, and then get to work.
Chynna conclusion is the key your/our/the campus’s success.
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This piece perfectly personifies why no one takes student orgs or ASM seriously on this campus…
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Yet again, the comment board of the Badger Herald is disgusting. I love that people feel as if they can interact with the media and share their opinions, but these anonymous comments about people are horrible. Chynna Haas is one of the most dedicated, responsible, thoughtful, hard-working, intelligent, and caring people I have ever met. She is one of the last people that I would think of to be “self-aggrandizing.” please. I think she was very brave to publish this.
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Kyle, you don’t defend your arguments at all. You just say ridiculous shit (i.e. calling Sam Clegg a racist). Why the fuck should anybody believe you over Chynna? Show some proof that she’s lying, that’s she’s delirious, and we’ll believe you. Until then, get off the fucking interwebz.
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ASM sucks. Period. I want my three minutes back.
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Most of the content of this article would have been better suited for a blog post, since it is relevant mostly to those in the ASM realm and because it gets so personal.
I have no beef with Kyle nor am I a fan, but no student deserves to be defamed like this in the Badger Herald, no matter how legitimate his or her negative qualities are.
Also, just a side note, ASM Chair Brittany Wiegand is not necessarily “anti-grassroots organizing.” I don’t think Chynna meant to imply that she is anti-grassroots, but the sentence can be construed that way.
-ASM rep
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So considering you stated your letter was going to offer advice to members of ASM, you could have probably cut this thing down to the last two paragraphs, right?
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$100 to the first person who can name the last woman to serve as self-appointed leader of the campus left.
Good luck proving that Kyle isn’t intensely sexist!
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i love finding out what crazy shit happens in ASM.
after talking to other students, i conclude that ASM does the following: 1. Gets us bus passes 2. clogs in boxes every few months 3. Funds student organizations 4. acts like a bunch of idiots.
students across campus agree, ASM is a waste of time
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All i can say is, Chynna, get over yourself.
And this was a huge waste of a page in the badger herald. I would have rather read the Daily Cardinal today than this article (and THATS saying something).
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so what i’ve learned today:
Kyle is a moron Chynna battled with a moron Kyle brought her down to his level and beat her with his experience.
everyone loses!
hoorah!
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Its clear that there is a total of about 3 people making substantive comments on this posting section…which is a large chunk of the students who actually care about ASM.
I am graduating next week and have never once cared about ASM because everytime I hear about it, they represent themselves exactly as they are portrayed: a bunch of over-achieving idle students who either lack self-confidence and need this rediculous community, or are just simply padding their resumes. Most of the people I have met who have done anything with ASM acted as complete self-righteous dicks…you would think an 8% voter turnout would make them realize that no one cares! An 8% voter turnout!! Voting was SO easy, all you had to do was follow a link that was emailed to you, commit 3 minutes filling out bubbles, and then click submit, and still only 8 percent did this! 8 PERCENT! That figure is just so insignificant, and all you kids run around pretending that its real politics you’re playing!
If it were up to a student vote, we would all get rid of this rediculous body that has way too much power. YOU DON’T REPRESENT US! Most of you are rediculous left-wing radicals…THAT IS NOT REFLECTED IN THE STUDENT BODY! Something needs to change…I think you ASMers have made it perfectly clear that the students interested in running student government at UW are just waaaaayyyyyy too immature to handle it. Grow up, for all of our sakes.
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It’s good that you’re not graduating until next week, you’ve still got time to learn how to spell ‘ridiculous’
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1:28 pm … does it really take bravery to lie about former comrades in an op-ed piece? I think not.
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Wow — I’m glad these drama queens didn’t win in their effort to take over ASM. What babies
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Easy. She said it clear: “there were a series of conversations between Kyle and I on who would serve as ASM’s leadership. To confirm a consensus on the subject, I e-mailed Kyle on Dec. 9, stating should the ASM constitution pass, I would run for president and, should it fail, I would run for chair.” This is the only reason she did get out, She wants to be the chair. OK. Now, this op. ed. is really showing why she should not be the chair; Ironic or consequent, likely both. In politics, there are two reasons why you would run for a rep position: Whether you care, or whether you care for others. In a 40.000 students community the first reason is insufficient and quite dishonest, it is not enough to care, neither portrait yourself like a “solver” above everybody else, above the good and the bad. To care for others means that your ego is secondary, and whoever’s that you care about is your first priority. And that is how you pick your agenda, because in politics we all have agendas. In Chynna case, she is the founder of Worker Class Student Union, and she does have a great list of issues that she should care about not just for herself but for thousands of workers class students that would love to have a chance in an overpriced “Public” UW. But she chooses not to advocate, not to fight for a political agenda that would effectively help those that she claims to defend. I hope that this is just a bad decision in an overly “hot” season. I really hope Chynna has more heart for her causes than for her own personal ego. We all lost with Chynna’s actions, because if somebody would set the agenda right for the poor, that would be Chynna. Chynna! A class, the working class anyway, is larger than your own feelings, personal aspirations or any drama that is involved in politics. I hope in time you acknowledge that in politics there are always interests, and it takes character and strength to pick yours and go with them until the end. No matter what. For the rest comments, well! If the comments section of college newspapers is the most articulated expression of politics around here, well, this indeed shows a lot!
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ASM sucks. Burn it down and start over with a new name, new people, and a new system.
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What a self-absorbed rant. I’ve been watching campus politics at UW since the early 80s, when I was a student, and I’ve never seen anything like it. Not at all surprising that the Herald would print something like this. They’ve done worse, much worse, in the past. But that someone would voluntarily expose herself as such a conceited person. That’s new.
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wow chynna this is really disappointing. i knew when i met you at the first slac meeting your freshman year that you felt a little self-important.. but that was normal.. you know you were a freshman, but come-on do you really think you are all that? is this about telling people how important you are? .. jesus this is sad and pathetic.