Finally a breath of fresh air in the "all troops are uneducated losers who don't have a chance in life" rhetoric constantly spouted by others in your paper and on campus. Tell this to the thousands of highly educated surgeons, lawyers, nurses, pathologists, pilots (many whom gain lucrative careers later in the airline industry), scientists and yes even Combat Arms Commanders I see and work with on a daily basis. College students would do well to look at the facts:

EVERY Officer in the military must hold a 4 year degree.

EVERY Sergeant First Class has the equivalent of an Associate's degree

The Military offers nearly free college 75%-100% off college tuition while on Active duty status to all Soldiers.

The above factors make this one of the most highly educated forces America has ever produced. In short these people aren't your enemy but your peers highly educated individuals proud of their service to their nation and the person's living in it. No more "trained killers" than the police who patrol your local neighborhoods and must shoot a criminal in order to survive themselves.

In short while the "protestors" were out screaming bring the troops home. These very troops were out feeding the starving, providing medical care for those in 3rd world nations, providing humanitarian assistance to those who would otherwise not receive it at all. Patrolling the streets of New Orleans and preventing crime there. Clearing away snow covered roads in the Northeast, fighting forest fires out west, continuing research in bionics and medicine. Developing new computer technology and forming new governments.

In short one has to ask who REALLY did the most this weekend to foment "peace in our time" those protesting or the very troops they were protesting against.

I wonder who those yahoos think will protect the country? Or maybe they think that in today's peace-loving, violence -free world there's no need for armed forces?

The vast majority of people share your sentiment. A few blow-hards just like the attention. The troops are an easy target for these folks. No one's listening to them.

Joe, I just read your little piece here and it doesn't sound to me like troop-bashing. If they were calling the troops themselves "murderers" or "baby-killers" then you'd have something to write about. Instead, they bashed the recruiters who lie to kids to get them to enlist.

There are, however, plenty of troop supporters still calling Vietnam era draft dodgers "cowards" and "traitors." In Seattle this weekend, a guy named Earl Parker, who identified himself as "Pfc. John" went railing insanely against anti-war protesters, including a veteran of the Iraq war. He tried at one point to commandeer the podium from anti-war speakers and had to be removed by rally organizers. From what I heard, the guy's not even a vet!

Joe, you have to admit, four years is a long time to be in Iraq, especially since we were supposed to only be in Afghanistan looking for Osama bin Laden. They still haven't found him yet. We're not there to liberate the Iraqis, we're there for the oil, plain and simple.

Getting back to the troops, the US Government is bashing them, not the anti-war protesters. Look at the sorry state of those VA hospitals! And where the hell is this guy named John Furgess, the former Commander-in-Chief of the VFW? He was going all out to protest the treatment of veterans past and present. Is he too busy screaming at draft dodgers in Canada? Some hero!

And let's not forget the atrocities committed by our own troops over there. Let's also not forget about the way women troops are being treated. Raped and sexually harassed by their fellow troops. And no, Joe, a lot of those Vietnam vets aren't exactly innocent of wrongdoing with all the villages they massacred, the underage girls they raped in the brothels of Saigon, and of course the thousands of illegitimate kids they left behind. Only the vets who came back and spoke out against the war get my respect and admiration.

No, Joe, I'd say those protesters you're whining about in this article were pretty tame. If you think protesting war is a slap in the face to vets, then maybe you need to talk to some vets on the other side of the fence for awhile.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"

But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll -

For it's Tommy this an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"

But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;

An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;

An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

Thank you. It's nice to here someone say what needs to be said.

Here's how it works: no support for the troops, no support for the war, no money for the war, no more war.

Support for the troops, support for the war, support of the president, money for war, more war.

Don't you get it? Obviously, you DO get it, since you're in Madison and not in Iraq.

There's a difference between supporting the troops and supporting the government's exploitation of the troops. It's not like people want our troops in Iraq to die, we want them out so more won't suffer that fate. Your only argument is that people don't like military recruiters, but that is not the troops in Iraq, that is the arm of the government. Same thing with the "kill and control."

Wow! There are actually some sentient beings left on the UW campus.

Well written and very refreshing - thank you.

Yes, the troops deserve our respect. And we should respect them by not sending them to die for a lie.

Joe you need to do some research on the military before you say that the GI Bill is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The program requires you to pay $100 for the first 12 months of enlistment. After the money is paid there is no way to get it back unless you are fortunate enough to attend school and stay in school. Many veterans have a hard time adjusting to the school routine or are still unsure about what they want to do with their lives and end up dropping out. According to "The Chronicle of Higher Education" only 8 per cent of veterans use all of their entitlement . This is sad when this money is the main thrust of the pitch that recruiters use. While tuition for college increased 65% from 1985 to 1999, the maximum award under the GI Bill increased by only 16% (Rand 2000). In a meeting with recent veterans of those who went to college all of us were forced to take out loans. The GI Bill is touted as paying for college when it doesn't come close.

True it did help when it was initially brought out following WWII in turning the economy around and increasing the use of universities. However, the shortfalls of the program in the years since then show that it should not be used as the carrot as much as it is.

Another problem is the way that Reserve and Guard members are treated with regards to the GI Bill. I have talked to many who have had to wait two or more months to get their payments. In the meantime they are forced to ruin their credit in paying for school, books, housing, etc. This is ridiculous especially in the war time climate we have been in for over 6 years. The government wants them to go fight in wars and then treats them like shit and makes them suffer in order to get the benefits they deserve.

The National Guard has also had many members who get orders in the middle of a semester and lose all of the time they put into studying and such. Instead of being here to help in national emergencies they are being used as though they were active duty units. I knew two members of the Air Guard at UW-Eau Claire who were lucky enough to get orders within the last three weeks of school and got permission from their professors to take their tests early so they would get credits for the semester. The blatant disregard to these folks in unacceptable.

The main problem with recruiters in high schools or here on our campus is that they are a discriminatory organization. No other organization which openly discriminates against potential employees is allowed. The only reason they are allowed is because the Defense Department forces schools to open their doors. In the high schools, the "No Child Left Behind Act" was written by them and thus included the statement about getting access to schools and the students information or federal funding would be revoked. The only way kids can not be harassed by the recruiters calling them and sending brochures is to "opt out" of the program each school year. In colleges the military is also allowed on campus so that federal funding is not yanked. Recruiters prey on the poor and less-educated portion of our society with the carrot of the GI Bill and the supposed training they will receive.

In most military jobs, you spend at least half of your time in menial tasks such as cleaning which have no direct relation to you actual job. The job you have is also very hard to transfer to the civilian sector. As an example, the number of airplane mechanics in the Air Force is much larger than in the real world. When discharged these folks will have a hard time getting a job as the civilians have career jobs and thus don't have openings very often.

You offer that the military should not be taken away, while not everyone will agree with me, a "defensive military" is needed. Not the one we currently have which is used to wage wars of aggression. No one said the military should be disbanded but there are serious changes which need to be made in its structure and mission. While people learn different things in the military, there is no reason that going to college or entering the workforce could not give the same lessons to them. In waging wars of aggression and carrying out occupations of countries, there is a lot of violence waged on the occupied in order to keep them in fear and minimize the resistance to the imposition of the occupier's desires. This is what we are seeing in Iraq as the citizens are opposing the occupiers. While there are also attacks against the general population that topic is too long to discuss here.

Let us remember that if we didn't have real patriots who stood up the injustices seen in the world we would still be part of England. To say we would not be able to demonstrate is a reactionary response as no one can predict accurately how things happen. The troops who cooperate with these wars of aggression need to realize that they have the right and duty to refuse to participate in illegal acts. This includes occupations of countries. They have the precedence of the Nuremburg trials which concluded that you can think for yourself when asked to commit terrible acts. The only troops who should be thanked are those who speak out against things that are wrong when they see them. The rest of the troops need to be educated about their adherence to the principles of the Nuremburg trials and their rights to speak out. As one of the veterans in the film Sir! No Sir! says at the end of the film, "What is the point in being a veteran if you are a veteran of something that is not good?"

Todd Dennis
Iraq Veterans Against the War
Campus Antiwar Network UW-Madison

I wish there was a way to withhold money for war. I wish there was a way to shrink the size of government. I wish there was a way to use money for real education and real infrastructure improvements. I wish we were the still shining beacon of the world.

Thank you for your article. As a veteran who is currently a student here, I strongly agree with you. I originally enlisted in the Air Force out of high school to obtain GI Bill benefits, because I didn't have the resources to attend college otherwise. I am now a junior and have no student debt due to the funds I have available. People who say derrogatory things about the military being a wise career option for young people to consider is very aggravating. Not every high school student gets funding from student loans and mommy and daddy, and the military not only provides educational benefits, but educational opportunities while an individual is enlisted as well. Yes, Guard and Reserve members have committments that may interfere with their educations, but they are made fully aware of that during enlistment. I don't fully agree with everything regarding Iraq, but I believe that protesting against the war is not an effective avenue in producing a change in course, and it sends the wrong message to the men and women in the military who are, at this very minute, fighting for the protesters right to be there in the first place.

We're not there to liberate the Iraqis, we're there for the oil, plain and simple

And even if this was the ONLY reason we are there would you not agree without cheap access to oil would YOU BE LIVING the lifestyle you are now?????

Getting back to the troops, the US Government is bashing them, not the anti-war protesters. Look at the sorry state of those VA hospitals!

Yep look at the sorry state, made so by a decrease in funding (who is yelling we should cut funding now hhhmmmm????) A massive drawdown (fostered by a Democratic President again) and the sorry state and high cost of medicine in the US as a whole, not just the military.

And let's not forget the atrocities committed by our own troops over there. Let's also not forget about the way women troops are being treated. Raped and sexually harassed by their fellow troops. And no, Joe, a lot of those Vietnam vets aren't exactly innocent of wrongdoing with all the villages they massacred, the underage girls they raped in the brothels of Saigon, and of course the thousands of illegitimate kids they left behind. Only the vets who came back and spoke out against the war get my respect and admiration.

Nor let us forget the atrocities committed right on our own COLLEGE CAMPUSES, seems these "bastions of morality and virtues" as you would have us believe also have problems with date rape, sexual assaults, underage drinking, sex with underage women, professors having relations with coeds, murders and other such crime. So if it can unfortunately occur on a college campus, it can in the military as well despite the military usually DOING FAR MORE (such as making adultery a crime) than what you see on those campuses.

There's a difference between supporting the troops and supporting the government's exploitation of the troops. It's not like people want our troops in Iraq to die, we want them out so more won't suffer that fate.

Stupid argument, I guess we shouldn't send a firefighter in to fight a fire then cause he might die. "We want the fire out, but we don't want those fighting it to maybe perish???" Well can't have it both ways, the troops seem to realize what their job is. Only people who have trouble with it seems to be those NOT fighting.

Yes, the troops deserve our respect. And we should respect them by not sending them to die for a lie

Funny nobody had a problem with this when we were sent to Bosnia/Kosovo for the 10's of thousand of refugees we were told were there that turned out to be FALSE INFORMATION AS WELL.

The main problem with recruiters in high schools or here on our campus is that they are a discriminatory organization.

Oh really so the Badger football team doesn't "discriminate" against women?? Haven't seen to many quarterbacks with breasts on the team have you?? They have a paraplegic football team do they?? I haven't seen it.

Recruiters prey on the poor and less-educated portion of our society with the carrot of the GI Bill and the supposed training they will receive

Bullshit and you know it, like those recruiters will get so many from Harvard and Princeton to sign up or even the U of Wisconsin. Maybe if some of these blue blood bastards fought for the freedoms they enjoy Recruiters would visit them in droves. Fact is most "rich" Universities have turned their backs on the military and ROTC so why would a good recruiter waste time there. No they are going to go where they know they can put people in. If people at Harvard even had an ROTC (which they don't) recruiters would be on those campuses as well.

Nice to have so many "Vietnam Veterans" explaining how things are in todays military a full 40 YEARS since the war they fought. With respect to their service, listening to these folks try to explain the military today is like a Buffalo Soldier who rode horses explaining how to drive an Abrams tank. Cause things couldn't have possibly gotten better in a military that THEY have been out of for the last 40 years or so.

Anyone enlisting is reducing themselves to cannon fodder for those who will never step foot onto a battlefield. Let those wealthy well-fed bastards send THEIR kids to die for this just cause.

Under the "No Child Left Behind Act," high schools must provide military recruiters with contact information for their students upon request. There is no reason that military recruitment should not be considered a viable career option..."

-Joe... I went to a CPS high school and they took away half of our science labs to incorporate a naval academy...oh, did I mention it was a mostly minority high school? And the rich school next to ours was not even an option..mmmmmm...something is a little off..
http://savesenn.org/ you do the math...

5:05pm, why did you copy and paste stuff from 9:59am? I share your passion for protesting the war, but a little originality would be nice.

I was struck by your comparison of the left-wing "brainwashing" toddlers and the right-wing "brainwashing" young men and women.

Brainwashing: "Toddlers for Peace"
Brainwashing: Telling our college-age students that this war is worth fighting for, that you're giving up your years, your safety, your friends, your family, and even your life - for a war that many, many educated people, on both sides of the partisan line, are now becoming opposed to? No here as mentioned "The Iraq Study Group Report" as of yet, and I found that to be a pretty compelling peace of evidence.

Zach Heise,
Campus Antiwar Network

I'll also mention, for the record, that if any Madisonian saw or heard us marching on Monday night down state street, I challenge them to recall one anti-troop slogan.

We support the troops, and we want to bring them home. A classic statement to be sure, but CAN agrees one step further - we support the troops who refuse to participate in an illegal war that serves first and foremost to increase our holdings in the middle east.

I don't know where this misinformation comes from. Perhaps FOX News, which told Vietnam veterans this past weekend that antiwar groups were going to deface the Vietnam Memorial. Let's try to put that in perspective: No truly antiwar person would dream of doing that, and even if someone WANTED to, would they really do it at such a time that every right-wing group has focused their eyes on Washington? I would have been less surprised if a right-wing counter protester had spray painted the memorial, and blamed it on us.

That seems to be the general policy of many members of the right: either no information, or misinformation.

Zach Heise,
Campus Antiwar Network

yep CAN and other antiwar groups support the troops one can see their support in the "burning in effigy" of an American Soldier in Portland over the weekend. Funny isn't it that these "peace" activists who feign support never seem to back up their words with deeds.

Yes, and at the March on the Pentagon, I saw a rightwinger holding a sign that says "Peace Sucks"

I'm not the type to hold an entire group hostage for the actions of the few. And thankfully, as time goes on, the "few" in the case of those who support the war get fewer and fewer.