He he your name is Adam Smith and you are majoring in Economics. Why bother to reason with career protesters? They are best ignored.

Wait...you mean skipping classes didn't do anything useful? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you! Since when does skipping class not solve every problem a college student might have?

We must protest this development! I hereby call upon all UW students to walk out of their classes today at 11 a.m. We must not less this stand!

Sifting and winnowing has died with this article. Adam Smith, your case for staying in Iraq is weak, that is, if you make one at all.

"Those who demand that we leave Iraq now are so caught up in politics that they would prefer the former, causing all of those who have already died to have lost their lives for nothing."

Do you think so little of the supposed accomplishments in Iraq? I think I may know why. On Jan. 30th, 2005, Iraqi voted for the first time, risking their lives. However, there was relatively little violence that day. Makes one wonder what the insurgents were doing that day. Perhaps voting. The problem is, which you seem to understand, yet don't admit, is that Iraqis voted for very little. Hmmm, I wonder if they voted so you could write unsupported propoganda? Are you arguing that the Iraqis need us there? Based on what? (Mind you, any posts declaring Libya coming clean on WMDs had anything to do with Iraq, I will want some PROOF. Yup, the word most Iraqi war supporters hate. And the irony of the Syrian pullout will surely give me a chuckle, so feel free to demonstrate your own ignorance, and trumpet the Syrian pullout of Lebanon, so you can make your case to stay in Iraq.)

I digress.
While the vote took place, Iraqis and the new government have very little power. The US Coalition, previously under Paul Bremer, STILL has control of the majority of government ministries and budget. The Iraqi government wants to handle the insurgent problem, we won't let them. Perhaps, your article could have been more persuasive if you addressed just how our presence is helping. I would particularily like to hear your thoughts on the Humanitarian crisis we have caused in Iraq, due to our invasion and occupation.

You point out that Saddam is gone. So you think Saddam was a threat, looking past your unsupported reasons for this, the mission IS accomplished, but how is this an argument for staying in Iraq? I know, I know, the poor little Iraqis don't understand Democracy, in other words they don't know what they voted for. Adam, your charitous heart is admirable, but gimme a break, the Iraqis know what they want, so how are we giving it to them? Bush has said that freedom is written on everyone's heart. So why don't we trust the Iraqis? Confusing racism with charity is not a Democratic ideal.

When a person protests, they take a stand and speak out for what they think is right. It is understood that they may be criticized for their decision. However, the first post on this board portrays the protesters as unreasonable. Given the article by Adam Smith, I assume that the poster agrees and even believes that Adam purposes any semblence of reasoning. Adam's quasi argument, "if she is so worried about people dying why doesn't she go to the Southeast and protest against terrorists who blow up nightclubs or go to Central Africa and protest warlords not allowing donated aid food to reach their people.", really doesn't address HIS issue (which is still unclear) with the protesters. If Adam feels these issues are important and should be protested, it is HE who feels called to protest those issues, and there are probably others with him.

However, should Adam then be called unreasonable, because there are people dying here in the US, how could he not protest that and yet protest Africa and Asia? My point is that Adam is not making an argument, he is only disguising his own feelings of guilt. And with this article, Adam wants to pass that poison on to you, dear reader.

Finally, Adam fails to address why the protest was an exercise in futility and stupidity. Adam musters all his might, but the best he can spout is, "Get over it". Perhaps I should, but I just can't get over the attention the protest has raised over the issue of recruiters on campus. Perhaps I should, but I just cannot get over the lack of resources, the poor management, and the insufficient and racist reasons for being there, which underpin Adam's whole article. If Adam's gibberish is the best the military can offer on campus, students have a right to tell them "NO".

By the way, if you think that free education and military recruitment aren't related, ask yourself, could the University be forcing students to the military by raising tuition? In any case, the relationship is very convenient for both parties. On second thought Adam's article is a drop in the bucket. Perhaps, sifting and winnowing died with the GI bill.

Fabu said, "By the way, if you think that free education and military recruitment aren't related, ask yourself, could the University be forcing students to the military by raising tuition?"...

That's a big accusation, so show us the proof... I'm willing to listen. Can you show a direct correlation between increased tuition and increased enrollment in ROTC? If not, then you're selling your opinion as fact, and you won't convince anybody of anything.

I am not selling my opinion as fact, and it is not an accusation. I only point out that the military and the University have a convenient relationship. I asked you to ask yourself a question. I don't control what your answer to it is. I wanted to show that free tuition and the ROTC COULD be related. See, that is what is called sifting and winnowing and I appreciate your desire for more info, as my interest is piqued, as well.

Aside from that, I think protesting the convenience of the relationship is certainly within reason, if only in warning to both parties.

Yeah I like the idea too, all those idiots leave my classes and argue for something that won't change, and then they get lower grades because they don't understand what going to class does for you. So it's a win/win for me!

"Those who demand that we leave Iraq now are so caught up in politics that they would prefer the former, causing all of those who have already died to have lost their lives for nothing."

Hey Adam Smith-goofy fucking name by the way- you are majoring in economics but obviously don't grasp the concept of SUNK COST. Go back to Intro to Econ classes and then try your major again.

"Yeah I like the idea too, all those idiots leave my classes and argue for something that won't change"

Oh so I guess you guys have no principles you are worth fighting for. Just because it is not likely to change I guess you guys would just give up because it's too hard. I think they could have chose a more meaningful and original idea than having a walk out, but protest of any kind are still needed in this country and I for one am glad that Madison is still fighting for the right cause.

They shouldn't be allowed to post Adam's pic till after noon. It's just plain mean to wake up in the morning to that scary fucking thing. I almost spit my coffee all over my computer.

>>How would my not going to classes that I need to complete so I can graduate have any affect on the fact that people are dying in Iraq?<<

Let's get one thing straight: EFFECT, mutha fuckas! Effect! EEEEEEEEEEFFECT!!!!!

Say it with me now! Dumbass.

Mommy and Daddy didn't listen to me, so the campus here at UW has to.

I'm fighting for the world. I'M having an effect. I feel better about it, because I did something.

Signed,

Peace Protestor.

"Let's get one thing straight: EFFECT, mutha fuckas! Effect! EEEEEEEEEEFFECT!!!!!

Say it with me now! Dumbass."

I'm sorry, I don't understand. I don't listen to L'il Jon.

Protest is a symbolic action. It is not meant to change policy directly. Instead it is way for the portestors to show those in power that they are discontent with the status quo. The protests in Montgomery didn't have any effect either. One could have said "look. All that not taking buses is doing is making them have to walk, there is no effect". However, it took a while for this dissent to register with the governement. Same with the Vietnam protests. Of course students can't directly effect policies that they don't have power to change. That is so obvious as to be a non-point.

I don't really see any problem with recruiters on campus, but I think it is fine for people to walk out of classes if they wish. Most of the country is apathetic when it comes to politics and at least these people care, even if I don't agree with them. They are still better than the idiots who vote on non-issues, like abortion, or because one leader seems "stronger" than the other.

blah, blah, blah.
"Enough is enough already. Some people really just don't know when to stop."
as someone who writes an opinion piece in a newspaper, you obviously accomplish nothing (sarcasm!) by discussing issues so why do you do it?

"If she is so worried about people dying why doesn't she go to the Southeast and protest against terrorists who blow up nightclubs or go to Central Africa and protest warlords not allowing donated aid food to reach their people. "

Maybe a better question to ask is:

If we are so concerned with freedom and democracy why aren't we invading Saudi Arabia or any other of the multiple countries that we conside our buddies that are equally as horrible as Saddam Hussein?

There is no justification for preventitive war. If you believe in preventitive war then you believe that the Japanese wer right to bomb Pearl Harbor. They had far better evidence against the US than we did against Iraq. We WERE actually planning to attack Japan. Iraq never even remotely planned to attack us, how could they? They were completely defenseless...

wait - i think i saw something in the washington post about this. the walk out was such a huge success that NOBODY oustide Madison even knows about it!

As for all the talk about rising tuition costs, free education and the military being so brazen as to offer to pay for someone's education i have two words for you STUDENT LOANS!! I had them when I attended school (at UW) and yes I have a lot to pay back but wasn't it worth it considering I now have a good job and make a decent living? Oh, and thanks to the GI Bill my boyfriend will have his tuition paid for and I'm thrilled for him. And for the record, he's white and from a middle class home and he freely walked in to the recruiter's office after 9/11 and chose to join the Army. The recruiter certainly didn't walk out on the street and force him to join.

I say that if anyone is stupid enough to join the military post 9-11 they deserve whatever they get be it benefits or arms and legs blown off. The guys I feel bad for are the reservists who joined prior to 9/11.

"I say that if anyone is stupid enough to join the military post 9-11 they deserve whatever they get be it benefits or arms and legs blown off. The guys I feel bad for are the reservists who joined prior to 9/11."

You're probably one of those idiots who believes Pat Tillman deserved to die as well. Am I to understand that only war protestors are entitled to have priniciples that they stand up for?

"Am I to understand that only war protestors are entitled to have priniciples that they stand up for?"

If I were still living in Madison I would probably be one of the war protestors. That being said this guy was right on. Well put my friend.

"I say that if anyone is stupid enough to join the military post 9-11 they deserve whatever they get be it benefits or arms and legs blown off. The guys I feel bad for are the reservists who joined prior to 9/11."

-wow, statements like that which make you wonder the mindset of certain people. What don't you go tell that to a soldiers face...oh wait you wont. My cousin is a marine, who flew transport helios in Fallujah. He has been a marine prior to 9/11. He just got back from his first tour and couldnt be more proud of all of the soldier he served with. The respect they have for each other and their country is incomparable. Please go post your thoughts on moveon or somewhere else, where they might be accepted. But not here where people are educated and rational.

I stand by my statement. If someone enlisted after 9/11 I don't feel bad for them. They knew the danger, they decided to join anyway. Many of these people voted for Bush and are making our country more dangerous with aggressive foreign policies. We are stirring up a hornets nest over there. Thousands of Iraqi civilians have been killed. Iraq will be a fertile recruiting ground for terrorism for the next 30 years. We have invaded and occupied their country. We are building permanent military bases there. Anyone who joined after 9/11 is contributing to the problem.

I feel bad for guys who wanted to help people out when the Miss. River flooded and are now in Iraq. Those are the people that I feel sorry for, enlistees after 9/11 I don't support and they deserve whatever they get as far as I am concerned.

"The respect they have for each other and their country is incomparable. Please go post your thoughts on moveon or somewhere else, where they might be accepted. But not here where people are educated and rational."

I agree with much of your post, right up until you lump this idiot with all left-thinking individuals. Many liberals are proud of our armed services and higly respect them. By saying liberal organizations like moveon.org or whatever will accept his negative veiws on the military you sound just as irrational as the guy you responded to.

I hear a lot or right wing talk about personal responsibility. What about personal responsibility for bombing babies? If these soldiers are stupid enough to believe that we are over there to promote "freedom and democracy" and they are stupid enough to believe that the gov't-Dems or Reps-have anything other than profits in mind. They are part of the problem.

http://www.marchforjustice.com/iraqioccupation.php

No, I feel bad for the guys that got suckered in before 9/11. I don't support anyone but them. Anyone else is adding to the problem and making the world a more dangerous place for me. Their stupidity, and lack of critical thinking skills, their asinine belief in patriotism and flag-waving are what is dangerous to our country. They enable the policies of the government that put us all in danger.

I was wrong in lumping all liberals with moveon.org..guess it was the heat of the moment and i was fired up. my regrets.

"enlistees after 9/11 I don't support and they deserve whatever they get as far as I am concerned."

- I really hate it when I read the comments people have posted and they personally attack someone else who commented but you are simply a jackass! Those who joined after 9-11 did so out of patriotism and the need to want to protect their country. Joining post 9-11 and supporting the war in Iraq aren't connected in this situation. I don't support the war in Iraq, I am a democrat and I support our soldiers 100%. I may not support our president or his policies but I will always support the soldiers who risk their life to defend this country - and your right to say whatever the hell you want. Until you are willing to sacrifice your life for the freedoms you seem to take for granted, please keep your idiotic and moronic comments to yourself. Like I started off saying - I'm not usually one to get involved in name calling but you are a jackass!

Oh so joining before 9/11 means you should feel sad for them once they have to actually serve after having received money for how long?? So it's ok for someone to be a reservist and spend a weekend a month or whatever they do and get a free education and whatever else they receive, but it's not ok to call them up when the government deems necessary? Sounds pretty stupid to me...why should I get paid if I never actually have to do what my purpose to begin with was? Wait...that's right...it makes no sense.

Bravo! All reservists know that one day they may get called to active duty. I have the utmost respect for those 99+% who honor their commitment. That is why they get paid now and why they got paid before 9/11.

DJ

There is a connection between joining after 9-11 and being an idiot. People who joined before 9-11 did not know that Bush would wage an illegal war in two countries bombing woman and children. People who joined after 9--1 did as we went inot Afghanistan shortly after 9-11.

Soldiers are not patriots. They are idiots who are too stupid to see how they are being manipulated. The governement does not care about our troops and anyone who has grown up after Vietnam should know this. All wars since WWII have been for profit purposes.

Soldiers do not "defend my freedoms". They are tools of a governement that voted for the Patriot Act- which takes away constitutionally guarantted freedom.

Please lets not make soldiers out to be some big heroes. They are really mostly dumb. Not all, but mostly and the fact that they would join after seeing Bush speak and hearing his ridiculous speeches and still think that waht they are fighting for is in some way noble proves it.

I support men nad women who think for themselves. Saying "I support the troops" is like saying "I support our cruise missiles" they are both merely tools for the moneyed elite to get what they want while making the world more dangerous for the rest of us.

The way to protect our country is to withdraw our troops from the Middle East and stop supporting Israeli terrorism. this would make the average peson in the Middle East less likely to support and harbor reactionary Islamists. As it is now, when we drop bombs on kids and Iraqis are drinking their own sewer water, when they have no electricity for much of the day. The rhetoric of these extreme group sounds more appealing.

"I support men nad women who think for themselves."

Ha ha ha. You said 'nad'.

i still think you are a jackass.

And I think you are naive. Soldiers are tools of the government. Go ahead and support tools, I'll support men and women who think for themselves.

I think the student protesters are the dumbest lot. They walk out of class to protest, they don't learn anything, they get bad grades, they eventually flunk out of school and then they wonder why nobody listens!

Yeah the guys who sign up to go Iraq and die are smart and the kids who are protesting getting them sent there in the first place are dumb. That makes sense...

"We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the
whole world--a nation of bullies and bastards who
would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not
just Whores for power and oil, but killer whores with
hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and
that is how history will judge us...No redeeming
social value. Just whores. Get out of our way, or
we'll kill you.

Who does vote for these dishonest shitheads? Who
among us can be happy and proud of having this
innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine?
These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and
fooled by stupid rich kids like George Bush?

They are the same ones who wanted to have Muhammad Ali
locked up for refusing to kill gooks. They speak for
all that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the
American character. They are the racists and hate
mongers among us--they are the Ku Klux Klan. I piss
down the throats of these Nazis.

And I am too old to worry about whether they like it
or not. f**k them."

-Hunter S. Thompson

Thompson did the right thing at the end, the worthless piece of crap.

Yeah the guys who sign up to go Iraq and die are BRAVE and the kids who are protesting getting them sent there in the first place are COWARDS.

Dying to defend your family and way of life =bravery

Dying to defend Shrub and Halliburton's pocketbook=idiocy

I would never ask someone else to fight in a war that I wouldn't sign up for myself. How about you? Are you writing from Mosul? Didn't think so.

Those who support the war (ie. most College Republicans) but don't enlist are the true cowards.

Those who protest are at least risking some consequences for their beliefs, what are the chickenhawks doing?

" Shrub and Halliburton's pocketbook"

If this was the objective then making nice with Saddam would have been FAR more profitable. There was good money to made in the palace building business. Hell, there was good money to made by just being Saddam's buddy - ask the French, Germans, Russians and UN bureaucrats.

If oil was the objective we should have left Saddam in Kuwait - and let him grab Saudi Arabia too. He'd be pumping those places dry and oil would be cheap.

That said, I wish we would have spent the money putting up enough nuclear power plants to eliminate our need for mideast oil.

Still avoiding the question. Typical Republican move when backed into a corner

I think the protesters are fruitcakes...but it's also beautiful that we live in a country where they can be as wacky and annoying as they want to be.

"Those who protest are at least risking some consequences for their beliefs, what are the chickenhawks doing?"

The war will be won or lost at home, just like Viet Nam was lost in Chicago and New York and Madison - not by the troops in the field. It's very easy to be a "protester" amoung the appeasement minded majority in Madison, I mean what "consequences"?

"The war will be won or lost at home, just like Viet Nam was lost in Chicago and New York and Madison "

The war was not "lost" at home. The war was lost because it was poorly thought out war for profit. We were still losing it before public opinion changed to be antiVietnam. We have the same scenario playing itself out here. It takes a few years for dumbass middle America to realize what the fuck is going on.

The excuse then: Communism
Now: Terrorism

The profit then: Boxite,minerals, shipping lanes
profit now: oil, shipping lanes

Is the same thing that's why it is the same quagmire and the same bloodbath and the same neverending insurgency. We will declare the War "over" the same way we did in Vietnam and we will tuck our tails and run.

and fuck you with your "appeasement". We were not attacked, we were not under threat of an attack, the Iraqis were virtually defenseless-that's the reason we attacked them and not N. Korea. What lesson does this teach countries like Iran? Better go nuclear or have som deterrent-like missils pointed at Seoul- so that the US won't invade.

This war is crinminal and anyone who supports it is a criminal.

"The excuse then: Communism
Now: Terrorism"

How'd that "Communism" thing work out? Oh yeah, dustbin of history. I really hope it doesn't take 50 years to beat Islamic Fascism but appeasement sure won't do the trick.

"I say that if anyone is stupid enough to join the military post 9-11 they deserve whatever they get be it benefits or arms and legs blown off. The guys I feel bad for are the reservists who joined prior to 9/11."

I say anyone moronic enough to make a statement like this doesn't deserve to be protected by the heroes who defend this country.

And for the record, I'm not one of those Bush loving drones. Despite serious misgivings, I voted for Kerry.

1/4 of the people in the world are still communists...

Wasn't Viet Nam started by the dummycrats? I'm not seeing how LBJ made any money off it.

"This war is crinminal and anyone who supports it is a criminal."

Did you fill out a tax return this year?

Guess what? If you did, then it doesn't matter if you oppose the war. By paying taxes, you supported the war financially.

So I guess you're a criminal now, and al-Qaeda is justified if they kill you.

Unfortunately we live in a world of moral compromise. That doesn't make the war less illegal or its perpetrators less evil.

I protest becasue I am forced to pay taxes, forced to be an American and therfore my life is endangered by idiots like you who think that we can bomb away terrorism. It is my civil right of free assembly.

"1/4 of the people in the world are still communists..."

I hope you aren't including the Chinees - thay're just an autocracy - not communists.

Hippy college-aged dipshits who live in the hinterland and know approximately nothing about politics or history sure are entertaining.

Have any of you pacifist nutjobs ever talked to anyone who worked for the CIA or the military? Or do you just prefer to get your news from the Socialist World Worker?

You folks commenting on our history or this war are like me commenting on astrophysics (hint: I know nothing about astrophysics).

DC Aum.

With more than 63 million members, the Communist Party of China (CPC; CCP for the unofficial name Chinese Communist Party; or the somewhat derogatory Chicom) is the largest political party in the world. Authoritarian in structure and ideology, it continues to dominate the government. In periods of relative liberalization, the influence of people and organizations outside the formal party structure has tended to increase, particularly in the economic realm. Nevertheless, in all-important governmental institutions in the PRC, party committees work to see that party and state policy guidance is followed and that non-party members do not create autonomous organizations that could challenge party rule. Party control is tightest in government offices and in urban economic, industrial, and cultural settings; it is considerably looser in the rural areas, where the majority of the people live.

"I protest becasue I am forced to pay taxes, forced to be an American and therfore my life is endangered by idiots like you who think that we can bomb away terrorism. It is my civil right of free assembly."

And I protest because my life is endangered by dumbasses like you who think we can wish terrorism away with flower power.