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Hundreds protest Chinese right violations

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Also by Danielle Felgenhauer:

Dane County keeps World Dairy Expo (March 31, 2008)

by Danielle Felgenhauer

Monday, April 21, 2008

While many were drawn to Capitol Square for the return of the Dane County Farmers’ Market on a sunny Saturday this weekend, others gathered there for a different reason.

The Human Rights Torch Relay came to Madison with a mission to increase publicity of human rights crimes in China on the heels of the 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing.

More than 300 protesters representing local and international political organizations, University of Wisconsin student groups and other human rights activists paraded down State Street to voice their outrage toward the Chinese government’s human rights abuses.

Protesters held signs reading “Free Tibet” and “If you’re a monk in Burma, you’re hunted and killed.” Others depicted pictures of Chinese Falun Gong prisoners being tortured.

The event started with the torch ceremony followed by speeches in front of the Capitol, a march down State Street and a rally at Library Mall.

The relay is an international grassroots campaign to raise awareness of and pressure communist China to stop their human rights crimes, according to local rally coordinator Sharon Remer.

Under the language in the Olympic Charter, any country that hosts the games must engage in a peaceful society and refrain from discrimination against a country, or a person on grounds of race, religion, politics or gender.

Hosting the 2008 Olympic Games, China agreed to clean up its human rights policies.

However, as human rights violations continue in Tibet and elsewhere, activists and political officials express growing concern about China’s failure to uphold the principles of the Olympics.

The worldwide awareness relay will go through six continents, 40 countries and more than 150 cities, 43 of which are in the United States.

Madison Mayor Dave Cieslewicz was not present at the protest but offered his support in a letter.

“As a community with a deep respect for human rights, we are honored to be a part of the Human Rights Torch Relay,” he wrote.

Other statements of support came from U.S. Rep. Tammy Baldwin, D-Wis., and Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., along with a host of elected state officials.

History behind the protest

According to Remer, the rally began with the Coalition for the Investigation of the Persecution of Falun Gong.

Falun Gong is an ancient Chinese practice reintroduced to the public in 1992. When the Chinese government estimated that nearly 70 to 100 million people practiced Falun Gong, they became nervous and banned it, Remer said.

“The Chinese government accuses Falun Gong practitioners of being political and part of a cult,” said Susan Prager, outreach director for the rally.

According to Remer, Falun Gong is an apolitical, unorganized practice whose “principles are to believe in truth, compassion and tolerance.”

Remer said upward of 1,800 Falun Gong followers have been arrested and many died in labor camps or were used for organ harvesting. Other sources have cited the number of persecuted Falun Gong practitioners to be more than 100,000.

“We want people to know about the persecution,” said Falun Gong practitioner Wenjiong Li. “The Chinese government steals, in a very horrible sense, human rights.”

Li said Falun Gong are not against the Olympics, but want to see China improve human rights practices.

Allegations are that the Chinese have taken part in organ harvesting from Falun Gong, removing organs from living Falun Gong practitioners to sell for profit.

Prager described something called transplant tourism, where instead of waiting a few months and possibly never receiving an organ, one might go to China and wait a couple of weeks. The question is where these organs come from.

According to an independent investigation conducted by David Kilgour, former Canadian Secretary of State, and David Matas, an international human rights lawyer based in Canada, these allegations are true. Evidence from their study proves organs are being harvested from live Falun Gong prisoners. Their report documents approximately 41,500 organ transplants.

“It’s very eye-opening, and you can’t deny the facts,” said spectator Mairin Hesselbein.

The Human Rights Torch Relay was initiated with Falun Gong but has now expanded to reach all those persecuted including democracy activists, lawyers, human rights defenders, religious leaders, journalists, trade unionists, Tibetan Buddhists, Uighurs, ‘unofficial’ church members, Falun Gong practitioners, environmental activists, health and reproductive rights activists, political dissidents, as well as the people of Burma, Darfur, Sudan, Zimbabwe, North Korea, and all others persecuted by the Chinese government.

“We have all different groups represented,” Remer said.

Some participants in Madison’s event included Olympic gold medalist Casey FitzRandolph, state Rep. Joe Parisi, D-Madison, Action in Sudan, Falun Gong Group, Tibetan Children’s Dance Troupe, New China Forum, Southwest Association of United Church of Christ, Students for Free Tibet, Wisconsin Council of Churches, Wisconsin Tibetan Association, U.S. Campaign for Burma and others.

“Our concern is for all of the people who have experienced persecution at the hands of the Chinese government,” Prager said. “It’s important to take this moment and use whatever leverage we can find to pressure the Chinese government to more transparency when it comes to their practices. They claim that everything is calm in Tibet, but no reporters are allowed in there to verify that.”

According to Remer, as part of an agreement through the Olympic Charter, China agreed to improve their human rights practices before the 2008 Beijing Olympics, but they have instead gotten worse.

“So many people have lost their homes to make way for the Olympic venues,” Prager said. “If they go to petition, they’re put behind bars.”

Protesting the protest

Also at Capitol Square Saturday was a group in protest of the Human Rights Torch Relay. Their statement was, “Go Olympics. Know about Tibet.”

“The Olympics stands for the world. It means peace,” anti-protester Xinyong Zhang said. “It’s not time to talk about politics. We’re here to tell the truth. The truth is we’re trying our best to improve human rights.”

Amid the crowd at Capitol Square were pictures of torture and signs representing those persecuted, one reading “No genocide Olympics.”

“We want everyone to become aware of this and stand up and speak out,” Prager said. “It is an opportunity for people to really make a difference.”

Prager said she wants to emphasize the distinction that these protests are not anti-China, adding, “We would like for the people of China to be free from persecution.”

Prager hopes “after the Olympics, people still retain this in their consciousness.”

Correction: Due to an editing error, this article should have included some of the individuals in the photo were voicing support for the 2008 Olympic games in Beijing. We regret the error.

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Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 1:00am):

"Falun Gong is an ancient Chinese practice reintroduced to the public in 1992."

Complete rubbish. Get your fact straight please. Falun Gong is a modern cult. It is banned in China, which I do not agree. But the alleged prosecutions it suffers are mostly fabrications. It is almost a comic attempt to invoke the imageries of early Christians. Don�t believe me? Try to get any of their alleged photo to be authenticated by a forensic or Chinese study expert.

"... as well as the people of Burma, Darfur, Sudan, Zimbabwe, North Korea, and all others persecuted by the Chinese government."

Now you are barking at the wrong tree. Urge US government to pressure Arab countries to apply pressure on the Janjaweed will works much better to Darfur�

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 6:22am):

To the first Anonymous, "fabrication?"

Who's fabricating? People who have been there? Or China who won't let anyone in to see what's happening?

Surely if this is all "fabrication" there would be nothing to hide. What's China hiding? Only the guilty have to hide.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 6:30am):

Falun Gong a cult? - no it is not. Responsible media call it a spiritual practice. It has none of the hallmarks of a cult. The use of the word cult has been used by the Chinese authorities as part of the propaganda vs Falun Gong. I've read what the Chinese communists have said about Falun Gong and it was absolute garbage - just like what the Nazis said about the Jews.

allegations of persecution? You Doubt it? Please see below [or if you have some local Falun Gong practitioners in your area they might be able to introduce you to a refugee who has suffered for their faith in ways that would make you feel ashamed of what you have said]:

Amnesty International 2004 report: �Torture and ill-treatment continued to be reported in a wide variety of state institutions despite the introduction of several new regulations aimed at curbing the practice. Common methods included kicking, beating, electric shocks, suspension by the arms, shackling in painful positions, and sleep and food deprivation.�

US State Department Special report from its 61st Session: �The Worst of the Worst� : Practitioners of Falun Gong receive the harshest treatment, being subjected to criminal, administrative, and extrajudicial punishment on the grounds of "endangering state security." Punishment is triggered for mere refusal to denounce the movement or its founder, even without public manifestations of its tenets. Police and other security authorities are believed to use excessive force when dealing with Falun Gong practitioners.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 6:35am):

"Complete rubbish. Get your fact straight please. Falun Gong is a modern cult."

Why should I believe anything Chinese people tell me? They're closed off to the rest of the world. What do they know except what their Mao loving goverment tells them?

"Don't believe me? Try to get any of their alleged photo to be authenticated by a forensic or Chinese study expert."

Right. A Chinese study "expert" will surely tell us the "truth." ;-)

Who's being a comic now?

China heavily sensors the internet and makes sure to criminalize offenders. The government makes sure the Chinese know only what they are told. They even forbid foreigners to enter certain places to save themselves embarassment.

The CCP can fool the Chinese people, but they can't fool the rest of the world.

Poor Chinese people... everything they know is wrong.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 7:08am):

The headline for the article should have mentioned the counterprotest, as well. I agree with the pro-Tibet folks, but the article should have mentioned the other side a little more prominently.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 9:38am):

"Now you are barking at the wrong tree. Urge US government to pressure Arab countries to apply pressure on the Janjaweed will works much better to Darfur."

Indeed. Those outside glass houses should not rocks. Engrish please.

The US government has a tarnished record, but that doesn't mean we can't call China out for what it really is: repressive and imperialistic.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 9:39am):

The other side of the story should be included. For example, there were much more people counterprotest that day, some information in this article is not confirmed, thus the information from other side should be included for objective report.

I do not want to spend anytime talking about FLG, ask any member/friend around you in the Chinese community, I bet 99% Chinese will tell you these guys are rubbish.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 9:39am):

1984, anyone?

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 9:56am):

I was down at the farmers market and the majority of protesters that I saw were pro-china protesters saying that the media has been misreporting the events in china. They were supporting the olympics. The Tibetan protestors were there too, but saying that all of the people were protesting against the human rights violations in China is a misrepresentation. I would call it a pro-China protest

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 10:59am):

support human rights torch relay. China does have lots of human rights problems and sadly most of Chinese people are not aware of them or do not think those are the rights they should deserve. but this article has made too little report on the counterpart side. As far as i know, pro-Beijing campaign on Saturday was not insignificant either.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 11:00am):

Wow,
I could not believe it when I heard that Chinese were protesting the protesters. Are you kidding me? Where are these people coming from? Have they no sense of shame? China was lucky that it was awarded to host the Olympics, which it never should have considering how many human rights violation it has committed and continues to do so. The people of China should be outraged at their government, not the protesters. The Olympics is apolitical? Oh, please! This is such a naive view. Do you think the IOC process of picking a hosting country is apolitical? Anything that involves power is political.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 11:07am):

1936 = 2008

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 11:10am):

The ghost of Joseph Goebbels is alive and well in the PRC. Chinese ultra-nationalists would to well to study OUR turbulent western history and learn from our terrible mistakes with slavery, killing of natives, and world wars.

Don't repeat those same mistakes in Tibet, Burma, Sudan, Taiwan, Inner Mongolia, East Turkistan, and Sea of Japan etc..

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 11:12am):

Tibet should liberate China.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 11:27am):

Define Irony: 90% of those protestors wearing clothing that was made in China.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 12:15pm):

Way more Pro-China protesters out on Saturday than Pro-Tibet. Even the photo accompanying the article is a picture of the counter-protesters, not the Pro-Tibet people.

BTW, even if FLG is a cult - the way, say, Scientology is a cult - how does that excuse the allegations of 41,000 cases of organ harvesting from live people?

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 1:01pm):

Now then I do see that Nepal knows how to properly kowtow to the Chinese masters. If only Tibet would kowtow all would be well.

***

Nepalese soldiers and police guarding the slopes of Mount Everest are authorized to shoot to stop any protests during China's Olympic torch run to the summit, an official said Sunday.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/mochila/Nepal_authorizes_deadly_force_to_st_04202008.html

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 1:10pm):

These tibet people are talking about how chinese government is killing tibet people. But so far, they don't have even one piece of true evident to prove that. All they have is the fabricated ridiculous picture. Did anyone see the picture showing the soldiers in a tank? the funny thing is that these soldiers don't have chinese faces. How funny it is! How can you believe there liars?!

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 1:13pm):

Chinese people are not foolish. We believe in our own eyes, we believe in true evidence. Only evidence is the strongest! Any barking without evidence is stupid.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 1:19pm):

Shame on you, Badger Herald!!!
Another perfect example of media distortion!

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 1:30pm):

I have supported the olympics in China from day 1. But after what my wife and my kids saw on Saturday while we were at the farmers market, I have second thoughts about it. I do care about human rights in China and in Tibet but have never been active and vocal about it, but after seeing those red Communist flag waving while a few Pro Tibet and Pro Human rights activist were having an event and seeing there event get hijacked by loud Chinese Communist National anthem, my heart really felt for those poor Tibetans and human rights activist at the steps of the Capitol. My older daughter with eyes in her tears came to me and said Dad if this is what they are doing here can you imagine what they are doing in Tibet? I gave her a big hug and said honey this is democracy and you are absolutely right about Tibet. Later while making our round of the Farmer's Market I ran into a pro China supporter who was handing out leaflets and my wife politely asked him if he was from WI and that why the Chinese would not let Independent journalist into Tibet? To which he snapped and with a really strong accent started blabering about it was not her business where he was and that you western people are distorting stories and basically told us to shut up and leave. Which made us upset and not to make the situation worse we left.

While we were eating our lunch at Frida's we saw Casey with the Human rights torch followed by pro Tibet and pro human rights who were sorrounded by Goons (sorry for using this term by I can't help it)waving the red flags and shouting the pro Tibet chant down. After our lunch we decided that we are going to join the rally and support for Free Tibet as we had taken enough of it. While we were there it was amazing to see all those caucasion folks who had no part of it earlier were there to join the torch relay and hear Casey talk.

From this day on I will be always there for Tibet and human rights in China. After seeing the events unfold on Saturday and what my daughter had to say, it has changed me into a better person and my heart goes out to the poor tibetans who are being brutalized in Tibet.

FREE TIBET.

Proud Madisonian

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 1:38pm):

1. Do not ignore the other side in the campaign. There are huge amount of people who support China and a peaceful Olympics.

2. China has been very different in the past decade. If you have never been to China, either pay a visit there or talk to your friends who have been there before making irrational comments.

3. Free Tibet = Violent Olympics?? Think about it.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 1:49pm):

Crap! it's not about Human rights, but all dirty politics. If you ppl truly concerned about Human Rights prob in China, you should have questioned it and stopped it when China tried to bid for the Olympics. Now Chinese ppl take it so seriously and have been preparing for years for Olympics, you came out and showed your drama. Well done! but let me tell you, it wont work!

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 1:50pm):

HOLY FREAKEN JESUS.

Could you please tell me what u r writing about? Chinese protester interfere the "peaceful" "Human Rights Torch Relay"????

Have you ever been to Tibet? Have you ever been in China? Have you ever talk to the people who live in Tibet for centuries? If not, you'll def. not knowing the truth.

Wanna be next CNN?

Come on...Make the media UNBIASED!!

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 1:56pm):

What is the most important right of human? To survive and live a better life. That's what China has been working on for its 1.3 billion ppl. When we were starving and poor, you despised us, when we are getting better, you try to save us from our human rights problems. I sincerely appreciate your kindness.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 2:09pm):

I think the badger herald should print something tomorrow addressing the fact that their cover story was misleading and point out that the picture they included to accompany their article was of the pro-china protestors

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 2:36pm):

"BTW, even if FLG is a cult - the way, say, Scientology is a cult - how does that excuse the allegations of 41,000 cases of organ harvesting from live people?"

allegation: n. A DECLARATION MADE, BUT NOT YET SUBSTANTIATED. An assertion or statement of a party, which they intend to prove.

Prove it. The burden is on you. Until you do, why does anybody need to excuse a hypothetical?

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 2:56pm):

Shame on you, Badger Herald!!!
Please do some research before you posted this stupid article!

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 2:57pm):

EVERYTHING is political. Mao taught you that.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 2:59pm):

How can we get EVIDENCE about Tibet if the CCP won't let anyone into Tibet except their stormtroopers?

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 3:03pm):

I just got back from Beijing after living their for several years. I could only get internet access through a german-based IP-anonymizer, anonymous or something like that. I do know that there were demonstrations in Tiananmen with arrests everyday. Only the CCTV never talked about those demonstrations. Media bias anyone?

Why do people fight for their own imprisonment?

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 3:10pm):

Stupid!
I admitted that Chinese government still need to improve many things regard human rights, however, have you ever notice the developement, the progress, the good aspects that Chinese government have made during these years? Lives of people in Tibet had been improved greatly because of Chinese Government! Please! China is still a developing country!

And about the presecutions of Tibetans or FLGs, how can you know the truth just from some frabicated picture?? Those pictures, you can get it from any films or car accidents!!

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 3:12pm):

FLG is not an ancient practice!!!!
How can this nonsense be publicated?!

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 3:26pm):

I believe that the human torch relay has been held in Madison for many years, if I am correct, but this is the first time Chinese students and Chinese community going to the capital to counterprotest, right? Why? You can see around, normally Chinese students in Madison are silent, shine, working and studying hard, do not care politics so much. The reason is that this time it is not about human rights, religion freedom, or democracy, but about union of the whole China. It is not perfect in China and Tibet province of China, regarding human rights, etc, but we are making progress, we just want to present another side of the story. Again, welcome to Beijing, go to China, go to Tibet, see and think yourself. Ask the Tibet-Free friends around you, have they ever been to Tibet? How long they have not seen Tibet? China is changing so quickly that you can not make decisions based on 10 years ago or even 5 years ago.

Again, welcome to China, travel to Tibet, talk to normal Chinese guys in Madison or China. Think yourself!

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 3:30pm):

For a comprehensive investigation on Falun Gong and the live organ harvesting, see "http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf". This is from US state department.

In short, no convincing evidence was found that live organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners took place.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 3:39pm):

I am a journalism student and a U.S. citizen. I am not taking the Chinese side here, but I must say that this article is really poor journalism. The first 3/4 of the article is more or less a mouthpiece for Sharon Remer. Journalism requires "attribution"--not merely stating one person's idea as unassailable fact. For example, the writer says, "However, as human rights violations continue in Tibet and elsewhere . . ."--without offering any attribution for this statement.

Now, it is certainly possible--and many would say likely--that human rights violations are happening in Tibet, but good journalism requires that we not merely make assumptions or repeat received knowledge, but attribute our claims to a reliable source. And if the reader then discovers that one person is the main source for all the quotes and/or claims in a story, the reader will then know to suspect that the article is biased towards that person's view.

One of the biggest complaints that many Chinese people are now making against the West after the incidents in Tibet in March is that Western media is distorted. Many Chinese give examples of media distortion (e.g., misrepresentation of video by CNN) and use those examples as a reason to distrust anything and everything published by Western media about China.

I am eager for Western media to treat China and China related issues even-handedly if only to take away the convenient argument that the Western media are all liars. Admittedly, the argument about Western media distortion is flawed since Western media are not given completely free rein to report in China. Therefore, some distortion is inevitable. However, we in Madison have complete freedom of the press and should use it to publish stories that present the facts even-handedly and provide attribution for statements of supposed fact (e.g., the questionable claim that Falun Gong is an ancient Chinese practice). Again, I am not an apologist for China, but I find that claim to be utterly dubious. If the writer wants to state it as a fact, let her provide her source--and if her source is Falun Gong itself then any sensible reader should question the validity of the claim.

In summary, such poor journalism as represented by this story fuels the Chinese claim of Western media bias. And having such an easy argument for China supporters to fall back on--i.e., that all Western media are biased--does not serve the cause of understanding, or the cause of human rights. It just means the next time a Western media outlet reports about supposed human rights abuse, fewer and fewer Chinese will give any credence to such a claim.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 3:40pm):

If there were two protests on Saturday, why did one get that much more attention from the Badger Herald? Come on! Let us have stories from both sides.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 3:47pm):

OK. I have well respected the US news -reporting system for almost my whole life, which I always thought should be a model system for our own to learn from. But certainly not anymore after today. Yes, I admit that ours sometimes only tells good news about the goverment. However, we have never been completely blind and criticize other countries for not exsiting things and made up stories! When Badger Heralds showed only pics of those so called "Tibetans"that were born in America and have never been to Tibet of China" , or those that were raised up hating China and hating Chinese Goverment, did they see us? Did they see the true Chinese Young People that got tears in our eyes because of hurting by the western media distortion? Did they see how hard we try to tell American people about the true China? The pics of friendship between Han people and the real Tibetans? Or the pics of true Tibetans smile on every street of China? Do they know how Dalai got to India and then Europe in the first place? He decided to betray his country and his people because he could not slave his slaves any more? Did they know that it was the chinese government that first authorized the majority of Tibetans human rights? The rights that guarenteed them they will not be killed whenever the slaveowners like Dalai felt like it?

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 3:50pm):

It might be easier to get proof and evidence but China is a police state that does not allow a free press.

I think that the big, blue-suited Chinese thugs surounding the torch put across the correct impression of the real China.

And then there is this - Chinese thug pretends to be from Tibet:

***

China has not broadcast any images to the Chinese people of what they are doing in Tibet; but according to Mr. Ching, the Communists did broadcast the image of that wheelchair-bound woman being attacked by a Tibetan protester. A number of Chinese bloggers (in China) were outraged by the attack; they started to look into the identity of the attacker. In the course of their investigation, they found something shocking...

They stumbled across some other photographs: pictures of the attacker, clearly that same Tibetan protester (still wearing his Tibetan-flag bandana), arriving earlier for the festivities -- and marching in the company of a number of Chinese carrying Chinese flags:

http://biglizards.net/blog/archives/2008/04/forget_it_its_c.html

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 4:00pm):

Poor American people. I know a lot of them are very kind and they are willing to help people anywhere in the world.

But they are blinded by their media like CNN and Badger Herald.

Do you Americans know your media is supported by a bunch of rich people and working for "group interests?" Do you Americans know your government is serving for rich people as well? How do they get money for campaign? What do the rich people who supported their campaign want from them? Of course their own benefits!

Your government is a liar. Do you really believe they fight a war against Iraq just for "freeing the Iraqis?" They want the oil because those rich people want it. Your media sometimes lie for similar reasons. Many Americans are just tools being used for those rich people to play games.

However...Americans think they know things even though all that they know is from Media. They never see things by their naked eyes. Americans think they are thinking carefully even though all their thoughts are generated from lies told by their media. Americans think they are helping people in other countries, but they are not. They think so only because their government and media make them think like that.

To be honest, I really think normal Americans are very kind to people and many of them have hearts of gold. They are just misled.

Americans, please stop being their tools. See things by yourselves with your own naked eyes. Go to Tibet to see for yourselves.

Chinese know their government is not perfect. But they do feel their government is being improved. They do feel their life is getting better and better. They do feel they are getting more and more of their human rights back. Rich people in the US don't wanna lose their privilege to a rising competitor in the East. They will try everything they can to smoother it like what they successfully did to the Soviet Union. Chinese people don't need such "favor" from them.

That's why so many volunteers gathered there on Saturday to support their country-China. They are students. They are educated and they are presented here-in the USA. They are free to access any information provided by the western free world. THEY ARE NOT BLIND. IN SOME SENSE, THEY ARE THE ONLY GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO KNOW STORIES FROM BOTH SIDES WELL. THEY HAVE MADE THEIR JUDGMENTS. THEY ARE NOT WORKING FOR CCP. THEY ARE WORKING FOR THEMSELVES DOING THE THING THEY THINK IS RIGHT.

Americans, don't let pictures like Nepal police, extremely-faked pictures of dead people in Tibet, and pictures on BADGER HERALD claimed to be showing Tibetans however Chinese students supporting China and Olympics...fool you again!

Be an adult. Yes, children cannot tell those pictures were faked. Can you?

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 4:02pm):

I admitted that there are some human right problems in China. But China government is still so young, also it is trying best to improve that. You know, About 100 year after USA became a independent country, there are still black slaves. And the current China government has only less than 60 years history. Why should those problems concern you so much?

Another question. Why do you want to upgrade human right problem at this time, right before the Olympics? That really make us think there must be some other intents. Jealousy or resentment?

Finally, I want to talk about Falun Gong. When China government banned Falun Gong, I was still in China. And one of my relatives is the Falun Gong practitioner. He was kind of like a psychotic. He asked his sick mother to practise Falun Gong instead of receiving normal medical treatment. Ironically, he himself is a doctor. So if sb. say Falun Gong is a cult, I totally have no objection.

Tibet would remind me of a Microsoft interview question, "if you want to remove one state from USA, which one would you pick?" If substituting USA with China in this question, the one I would pick is Tibet. China government budget a great amount of money to improve Tibet's economy every year. And Tibetans enjoy much more social benefits than our normal citizens. So, I don't think the real Tibet people want that kind of independency.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 4:05pm):

Re: Proud Madisonian

I am sorry to know your bad experience, but I would not agree with you about the way you finally choose.

My points are, men are created for freedom and happiness of life, which is highly valued by everybody, chinese, tibetans, americans. A developing China is trying her best to work towards that direction. People who left China 5-10 years ago would never believe in their eyes how much China has changed. In this sense, it does not make any sense if someone tell you somethings from his/her memories about China. I am very shocked how naive some people are just yelling without seeing any facts.

I would very sincerely invite you to visit tibet some time if you really care about the situation and human rights in Tibet. I would be very surprised if you still have the same impression and attitude then.

Best regards.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 4:07pm):

Think about where you learned the human rights situations of China from!! CNN? BBC? Come on!! Open your mind, open your eyes. Go to China, go to Tibet, see by your own eyes what is going on! I asked many Tibetan protesters whether they had been to Tibet. NONE of them!!!

Did you hear the protesters said fxxk words? Did you know that they burned 5 Han girls to death in this recent violent event in Lhasa?

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 4:09pm):

"There has been a renewed crackdown on journalists and internet users in the past year -- a fact that makes government commitments to 'complete media freedom' ring hollow," said Catherine Baber. "The current state of affairs runs counter to the most basic interpretation of the 'Olympic spirit' with the 'preservation of human dignity' at its heart."

"Gleaming stadiums and spectacular parades will be worthless if journalists and human rights activists still can not speak out freely, if people are still being tortured in prison, or if the government continues its secrecy about the thousands of people executed," said Catherine Baber.

http://www.amnesty.or.jp/modules/news/article.php?storyid=195&sel_lang=english

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 4:13pm):

Chinese police kill eight after opening fire on monks and Tibet protesters

'They cried long live the Dalai Lama - then the firing started'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3683878.ece

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 4:33pm):

If there were two protests on Saturday, why did one get that much more attention from the Badger Herald? Come on! Let us have stories from both sides.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 4:43pm):

To Proud Madisonian,

I am a Chinese and I was there on Sat to support my motherland. I have been living in Madison for 7 years and got my Ph.D from UW. I was there not because I support communism or any human right violation. I was there because I hate the media distortion (this report is a good example) I recently experience. I was there to let people like you to hear our voice. I was there because I love my motherland, my people and support the olympics.

Are there human right violations in China? There certainly are. Every country has its own problem. But the most important thing you should know is the human right situation in china is indeed improving, actrually in a pretty fast pace. The african americans struggled for hundreds of years to get freedom from slavery and to be treated equally. The male african americans were guaranteed suffrage in the Fifteenth Amendment to the Constitution after the civil war. However, it was not enforced in many parts of the country until the Civil Rights Act of 1964. THAT WAS MERELY 44 YEARS AGO. Why everybody expects China to change overnight?

China has a long history, unique culture and philosophy. Not everything works in the western world can be applied to China. I believe human right are univeral value, but our people need to work out own way. Pressure from outside world is not going to help, espically propaganda using distroted information. To me, it's just a political show.

I do not want to talk about the histroy of tibet here. If you really concerned about the people there (and the human right situation in China as well), read the flyer you might have got from us. None of the reference we listed on it has anything to do with the Chinese government. Do a little more research about history and learn more about China before making your judgement. That is the whole point we stood on the street on Sat. Well, also to express or patriotism, an universal virtue that deserves your respect.

If you feel being offensed on that day, I want say "I am sorry", sincerely. That is not our intention. Our english might not be perfect, but our purpose is perfectly justified.

Finally, let me tell you, the entire event has nothing to do with the Chinese government. The only support we got from the Chinese Cosulate in Chicago was the five "Fuwa" -- symbol of the Beijing olympics. We borrowed them from the consulate.

I love China! I support the olympics!

A PROUD CHINESE

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 4:49pm):

Author, can you tell the truth and use the right pictrue in your article?! No more media distortion please!!!
The UW students groups were there to support China, not protest! The pictrue you use in your article is the Olympic flag to support the Beijing Olympic game. Why you don't show "No Olym-politics" you also saw there? You just conflict in your own article and cheat on the readers!

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 4:53pm):

Susan Prager, the outreach director of FLG sponsored torch realy, is also assciated with a quasai-government organization, Friends of Falun Gong, a non-profit started by fmr. Congressman Tom Lanto's wife, Annett Lantos, and Ambassador Mark Palmer.

Non-profit recoreds from GuideStart.org also show FoFG has given FLG media over 6 million dollars to promote their intensely anti-Chinese message.

Don't be fooled, please look into all the facts. For example the supposed "live organ harvesting" allegation, has been discredited by State Department's undercover investigations. Long time Chinese dissident Harry Wu also sent secret investigator and found the allegation not credible.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 4:54pm):

It seems those pro China supporters really scared a lot of innocent American people.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 5:10pm):

To this person,
Why don't you go to Tibet and see what is really going on there?

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 6:22am):
To the first Anonymous, "fabrication?"

Who's fabricating? People who have been there? Or China who won't let anyone in to see what's happening?

> Travelors are allowed/welcomed to enter Tibet as always.

Surely if this is all "fabrication" there would be nothing to hide. What's China hiding? Only the guilty have to hide.

> Why those ugly report arrises so much angryness in Chinese people around the world? Because they are not telling the truth. I'm from a province that is close to Tibet in China, and have many Tibetians residents. Chinese government is placing large efforts to construct infrastructure , medication, and education systems in Tibet- free of charge to tibetian people. My college university is having exchange program with Lasha Univerity. My friends are volenteering in Tibet or Tibetian area. China is not hiding....If a newpaper like BalgerHerald who doesn't have an object view on what happened yesterday, why would Chinese government allow all the potical-aimed media enter its land to produce more bias-news.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 5:12pm):

Do you really believe those people's words who refuse to take medicine when they were sick, and who burn themselves to attract others' attentions? I thought you were not crazy enough to trust them.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 5:59pm):

"My older daughter with eyes in her tears came to me and said Dad if this is what they are doing here can you imagine what they are doing in Tibet?"
who does that...

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 6:05pm):

Given the turmoil going on in Africa, the unrest in the Middle East, etc, why is everyone's attention fixated on China? Could it be... China's standing as a superpower nation? Could it be an unwarranted subconcious McCarthyism?

China is now no longer Communist, but given its long long history, as well as its huge population, the government is doing its best to change China for the better slowly.

For all you protesting to Free Tibet, please tell me how you think the government should do this.

I for one would like to see what would happen to Tibet if the Chinese government were to completely free the TAZ, and withdraw all its investments in the area. Included are countless schools, hospitals, roads, i.e. infrastructure that Tibet has never had before. Then withdraw all the economic development brought in by ethnic Han Chinese. How will Tibet fare in these conditions?

For those of you who think I'm a brainwashed Chinese student... I'm a Chinese student who has grown up in Canada and the U.S., and I enjoy every day here. However, I go back to China every couple of years. Guess what? It's better, year after year. Given the countless numbers of 'human rights violations' you'd listed, you think I would probably have seen some? Or maybe have had relatives who know someone who has had their rights violated?

But of course, the Chinese Government is covering all of it up... with their scary aggressive tactics.... their Red Communist Cloak...

Give me a break.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 6:17pm):

A Chinese student�s true feeling:
Dear friends and people who concern about the human rights in China and in Tibet, Thank you very much for your concerns and attentions for my country. And I am very thankful to all of the teachers, colleague and classmates who are open-minded and tolerate differences. I don't love CCP, nor any other government,(because they are "hired" by people to serve the community and they should keep them warm and secure), and that's why I refused to join it when I was offered the opportunity; but I do love the 1.3billion people living in China. They are friendly, hardworking and innocent. I don't, nor do any of your friendly people, want them to be starved and engage themselves into wars and kill each other, as what is happening in many areas in the world today and what happened in the modern Chinese history. Then how to keep these 1.3 billion of people out of all these nightmares? Separating the country? Providing weapons to the anti-communist party societies and engage China into a war? or by stopping the Olympics? Will any of these "solutions" be solutions? �No one can "give" liberty to another country, it can only be developed from within�. I would suggest that what Chinese people need now is a peaceful world for them to develop themselves, both in terms of economy and liberty. Please believe that the love for libterty is powerful and strong. Chinese people are fighting for it every day, but it just can not be done in one day. It took over 2 hundred years for the smart and brave American people to get what they have today, why should we demand a faster pace for Chinese people? I undersand that people in liberate countries are taking the human rights improvement in the developing countries as their responsibilities (I hope this is what you truely feel), and I highly admire your efforts. But Olympics is a great opportunity to educate Chinese people and let them see more about the world. That is something that will really make a difference. I just want to say that thank you very much for your concerns and help, but Chinese people need time to make their country as free and liberal as yours. When your student gets a wrong answer, what will you say if you really want the student to improve? You won�t tell him that he is just stupid, you encourage him to do better.

Meanwhile I do believe that a healthy society needs different voices and different opinions, which is what Chinese people are fighting for too. It is pretty overwhelming to me when all the western media are in the same tone. Now I am in the US and have the access to all the sources of information, and I found the truth does not match what they say so much. The western media was a token of truth and honor to me. China has a lot to improve both in terms of human rights and liberty, but she is not as evil as what they depict. I would suppose that people as open-minded and responsible as you would definitely know that �The free Tibet" in the reign of Dalai Lama was a serfdom society, and that 95%of the population was slaves. But what upsets me is that it seems the serfdom society 50 years ago was much more beautiful and had more merits in terms of human rights than today�s China.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 6:20pm):

Falun gong is the People's Temple in China!

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 6:40pm):

There are at least three errors in the article.

First of all, the people in the picutre are student from China waving the Olympics flag to support the Beijing Olympics, not the so said protestors.

Secondly, for the slogan'If you are a monk in Burma, you're hunted and killed', I get lost. Is Burma part of China? Burma is a country at southeast Asia. I don't think US wants China to stick nose over Burma, even though there might not be oil there, am I right? I am totally confused why this slogan is here.

Thirdly, 'Falun Gong is an ancient Chinese practice', check all of the ancient history records of China, I bet with my future PhD degree, you won't find it.

I am also curious to see all of data David Kilgour got. My training as a scientist tells me that in order to get a convincing conclusion, one should first make sure all of the data are reliable.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 6:44pm):

Do you guys remember our slogan?

Who are we? BADGERS!
What we want? Peace!
Why we are here? Olympics!

Plz try to understand other people before hurt them

Yaya Lin

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 6:58pm):

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 7:08pm):

Hey, guys, did you find something interesting in pictures shown by Tibet and Falungong; all people do not have head. Those are evidences???!!!Did you see the doctors dissecting corpses, they were white men, not yellow men!!!I think everyone can fake these kinds of pictures, but only idiots believe this. Go ask lawyer if these pictures could be evidence!!!
Another CNN. Wait patiently, a few days later, you will see that CNN makes an apology to Chinese.Then your turns, guys.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 8:38pm):

"Go to Tibet and see for yourself!"

How many Chinese students that repeat this line have actually been to Tibet either?

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 8:42pm):

US imperialists used the same excuses about improving lives to kill native Americans. Now the CCP is repeating the same excuses about Tibet. How are ugly, concrete Han buildings and going to help Tibetan tourism revenue?

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 8:43pm):

Shame on you! Protester for Tibetans. Your Dalai Lama told the world: "Tibet will not separate out from China!" You are going against your holliness leader.

Shame on you! Badgerherald. Don't use your cold war thinking! Do you want me to show those blooding pictures about your invation in Iraq? I bet the person write the article don't have a good education.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 9:39pm):

Maybe we should also remember this is just a student newspaper. It can't fairly be equated to CNN, BBC, no matter how poorly written.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 9:40pm):

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 9:58pm):

"Correction: Due to an editing error, this article should have included some of the individuals in the photo were voicing support for the 2008 Olympic games in Beijing. We regret the error."

Dear Writer & Badger Herald, I just wanted you to know that this phrase is just very disrepectful and extremely lame. *What a childish phrase to say* Your extreme lack of knowledge of world history and total disrespect to the Chinese population have completely ruined a reputable newspaper's image.. Perhaps, what you should really regret about is your intend to create the coldwar.. and also perhaps, what you don't understand is how hard the state of WI really try to establish a great relationship with China...

Please apologize to the badgers..

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 10:19pm):

ha.. so easy to tell that the writer is a freshman.. badgerherald, you are so forever doomed.. you have a freshman write a paper as serious as this, and did a horrible job! totally ignore the principles of journalism.. HA! way to attract this totally negative attention! if that's your marketing strategy.. that's way stupid!

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 10:28pm):

I think the best way to improve understanding is to go to another country, see and think yourself. If China is really so dark as described like some Free Tibet and FLG, why Beijing wants to host the Olympics, since during the coming summer tons of people from USA and Europe will go to China and see the first hand of "dark China" by themselves? If China is so dark, it would act like north Korea forbidding anybody entering the country.

So, my only suggestion is, if you have time, go to China, go to Tibet, travel as mush as you can, talk to the ordinary people in China, not only go to big cities like Beijing and Shanghai, go to the small towns, see yourself how "dark" China is, how "bad" China is. I bet you will find that just like any place in the world, China is not perfect, but we are making progress in every field.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 10:32pm):

don't journalists need to exercise some sort of due diligent? You missed edited the title of this article on the news paper headline??? come on, why do you have to play the dirty journalism?! Please come out and tell the truth and APOLOGIZE!!!!!!!

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 10:47pm):

Why you media always tell a lie??
Another perfect example of media distortion!
If your country is misunderstood, what will you do?

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 10:51pm):

falungong has 100 million people and the government get nervous?? LOL. you are thinking too high of falungong. the only reason it get cracked down is because it gets involved in politics, which a religious or spiritual group should not. Not even in usa

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 10:56pm):

organ harvesting from live people? did you guys ever see that by yourselves. Stupid people, believe whatever others say in the name of human rights!

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 11:06pm):

There are much more pro-China supporters during that day, most of them are students in UW-Madison,some of them may be your roommate, friends, classmates or TA. Should their voice be heard? Should the voice of UW-Madison students be heard? Do you think over 400 UW students are all brain-washed by the Chinese government? All of them? Come on, use your own brain. Come on, they are the same students studying here in this great university, they have the same judgment as you have. Then, do you trust over 400 UW-Madison students or some jobless, professional "China-Hater" protesters?

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 11:31pm):

As a chinese student, I'd like to say a few words.

Certainly I bet most of you had ever seen chinese people in a protest until last saturday. Traditionally, we are told to be modest and humble, especially in a different country. Most of us are indifferent to politics, and if this torch relay took place in February in Madison, you would not see any chinese students around.

The thing is, it's hard to believe when you see the overwhelming propaganda targeting China over this tibet issue. All of a sudden, the whole world became very much interested in Tibet and human rights problems in China, as if nothing else was happening on this earth.

Surely the Chinese government should listen to all criticism, because they should have done better. However, we do believe many politicians and journalists overacted this time. Some of their words and actions are irresponsible and misleading, which did nothing but have stirred up anti-China sentiment among the public.

We students are actually helpless in this situation. We don't want to get involved in this dirty political campaign, but we feel it would be dangerous if people could not hear a different voice. Actually, not many Chinese students had experience in participating in a protest, not to mention organizing one. That's why we may have made many mistakes on Saturday, and i apologize to those people who feel bad about it.

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 11:45pm):

Remember how pride kept Darcy from Elisabeth? Remember how prejudice made Elisabeth judge Darcy negatively?
Finally Darcy wasn�t afraid to show himself in front of Lizzy. Fortunately, not confining herself to her sisters, Lizzy went out to know Darcy through Bingley, Bingley�s sister and Darcy�s nanny.
China wants the world to see her by hosting Olympics and we Chinese people here in Madison try to display China from our point of view. Can western world open her mind and take a look? At least the biased opinions from Darcy�s nanny didn�t hurt Lizzy�s future.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 12:43am):

Follow His Holiness; Support Olympics.

Umm...I'm going to post this outside Deer Park.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 1:01am):

I was on State street most of the day and in talking with people on both sides trying to find out why both sides were there I found that those in favor of China were quick to dismiss questions about anything and would simply say that the others dont know what they are talking about and that I should look it up. If you feel passionately about something you should have the information to tell me so I can make a decision based on both sides and not be so dismissive. It leads me to believe that there is something hidden there that the communist government in china has put into the minds of the faithful.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 1:01am):

for those blaming "most of you Chinese haven't been to tibet yourself": Though some of us haven't been to Xizang ourselves, but we have many friends been there before, by car, by train, by airplane, and even by bikes. We know what is happening there and the living condition very well. If you still argue, think most of the americans haven't been to all the 50 states, and they still know that they are aware of the living condition in other states, coz they at least have friends and relatives who have been there before. It's exactly the same in China.

To the Madisonian:

I feel sorry that you changed your mind. I don't understand why your daughter will ask that kind of question and how you could think the Chinese people would do things bad to the people living in Xizang(Tibet) just because so many people gathered in the Capitol on Saturday and showed their love to their homeland.

We Chinese people consider the Tibetans(though I don't like this word or the name Tibet) as one member of our family, as brothers and sisters. Who would harm their own family, who would want to have a fight with them? The chinese government did countless effort to improve the living condition in Xizang, one of the highest places in the world. They built schools, hospitals, water facilities, electric plants, malls and even an airport. You can not imagine what things would be like in Xizang nowadays without the government.

Afterall, trust the things told by your friend, not by the media, or go and see for yourself. We Chinese people welcome all the people from the world, especially those who left Xizang 50 years ago, welcome back home.
Your homeland is not what you think it is. I promise.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 1:22am):

SAY Sorry to Badgers From CHINA Plz!!

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 2:05am):

"Under the language in the Olympic Charter, any country that hosts the games must engage in a peaceful society and refrain from discrimination against a country, or a person on grounds of race, religion, politics or gender."

So tell me which country in this world eligible to host the game?

Sam Jiberau (April 22, 2008 @ 5:28am):

Is this CNN? Complete lies here. Most, if not all, Chinese gathered there were supporting the Beijing Olympics, not protesting Chinese government. SHAME ON the Badger Herald. If you want to tell the story, make it right.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 10:42am):

Between truth and politics, Badger Herald leans towards the latter. Another perfect example of media distortion!

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 11:23am):

Some of the Tibetans (who have faces and had lives) killed by China's military and armed police since March: http://youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=skGhhSY-VJg

The images are very graphic. Please be warned.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 11:23am):

I don't understand how journalism works.. but don't you people need to at least exercise some sort of due diligent? such a controversial serious topic, you have an inexperience freshman writing it and make it completely politically and socially wrong.. Do you have any respect to the chinese community? do you understand the community at all?

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 11:31am):

I go to college in US, and before that I went to high school in Shanghai. We had about 10 kids from tibet in my grade, 2 in my class, and the boy was one of my roommates. I lived with him for 3 years. I was also friend with the girl, and the tibet kids in other classes. The girl even invited some of us to Tibet after graduation.

From all that I know from the 3 years I've been with them, life for local people in Tibet is nothing different from 70% percent of China -- by that I mean not as rich as the southeastern part, but for most civilians, it's just normal as it is in any other provinces of China.

On the religious part, I admit I don't know much about it. But I can be 100% percent sure that you can follow any religion you want, as long as you don't mess with politics.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 12:05pm):

Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 9:40pm):
Hey, guys,

did you find something interesting in pictures shown by Tibet and Falungong;

all people do not have head. Those are evidences???!!!

Did you see the doctors dissecting corpses, they were white men, not yellow men!!!

I think everyone can fake these kinds of pictures, but only idiots believe this.

Go ask lawyer if these pictures could be evidence!!!

Another CNN. Wait patiently, a few days later, you will see that CNN makes an apology to Chinese.Then your turns, guys.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 12:40pm):

Daily Page of Isthmus is a much more objective paper than Badger Herald.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 1:44pm):

You thought you have a "free" environment to speak out. You watched and trusted the news, the tools of your government, and said "This is our freedom". Wake up~ You are totally fooled.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 2:06pm):

Fascist reasoning on the Tibet issue:

1. There is an objective "Truth" out there that can only be conveyed by one evaluation--specifically one that supports nationalist development.

2. A nation's people are instruments of the nation's government.

3. National development is justification for human rights abuse.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 4:20pm):

to the anonymous that provides the youtube link:
This is just a video showing bloody human bodies. there is no proof that these people are tibetans killed by chinese government. If I want, I can also find lots of bloody pictures and make a video saying that american government is killing chinese students in USA. Actually, I think there are a whole family burned to death by tibetan monks in tibet, a whole family including 5 or 6 little girls. So be fair, don't believe anything until you see the truth. And if you don't have evidence, just keep your mouth shut!

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 4:22pm):

Pro China part always suggests people to go to tibet to experience the real life there. However, have you guys ever heard a people supporting free tibet say that? why? Because they are scared that you guys will find out the truth if you go there. They can just bring bloody pictures and lie to everyone.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 4:45pm):

take a look at this
www.anti-cnn.com
that's how your media has fooled everyone.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 5:46pm):

This is insane! The reporter and the editors can not even recognize who were supporters, and who were protesters. The majority of this picture shows the support to China and Olympics, especially the flags. This is funny. Being a reporter needs a lot of work, not just take a picture and sit and relax. Low IQ!

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 6:21pm):

Please come out and tell the truth and APOLOGIZE!

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 6:22pm):

Please apologize to the badgers from China

Yaya Lin

Amber (April 22, 2008 @ 7:26pm):

Falun Gong is an ancient cultivation system made public only recently in 1992. So there is nothing wrong with the report.

Falun Gong is badly persecuted by Chinese Communist Party. No attorneys in China could be allowed to do defense for Falun Gong practitioners. The facts of persecution are highly covered up. Still the tip of iceberg disclosed is astonishing. check http://falunhr.org/ for details.

People enjoying the freedom of speech here should remember their motherland may not have that simple previledge.

Not to mention that, the Chinese Communist Party cannot be equal to the country, ethnicity of China and Chinese. Chinese Communist Party kills Chinese including Falun Gong practitioners and Tibetans and their supporters. So Chinese Communist Party is not equal to the motherland or the Chinese culture.

Badger Herald did the right thing. Thanks.

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 9:19pm):

Let me tell you why the Chinese students appeared aggressive at capitol hill - they are simply bullied.

What happened in Tibet last month was a riot - violent Tibetans attacked and killed Chinese and Muslims. West media went there and they all admitted. Even the Tibetan government in exile didn't deny it. The Tibetan groups said Chinese troops killed 130 Tibetans, but without any solid evidence. They once worked out a list of victims and later the "victims" were found alive!

There are tons of witness reports by western tourists - all believed Tibetans killed Chinese, not the other way around.

Now, all the Wisconsin senators and congressmen supported the Tibetans, all the media only report Tibetans' words, all the general public only listen to the Tibetans' show since the Tibetan groups are more professional and know how to make up stuff - they have been doing these for decades.

Shouldn't the students be angry? They are angry and feel so helpless! So helpless because nobody would listen to them even this time they are definitely the victim!

How many people actually check out the leaflet the Chinese students give you? Right, you don't care because you think they are propaganda prepared by the Chinese consulate in Chicago...

How many people know that these "propagandas" are actually collected by these students and all of them are written or published by American scientists and artists who were portraying the other side of the story about Tibet! How many people know that a lot of Tibetans in saw at Capitol escaped the Chinese rule because they supported the biggest slaveowner of the world - Dalai Lama!

Think about it, think about what you have done to these young innocent souls! It's a real CRIME! Think about the hatred you are building up...

Always do your homework before you jump into any conclusion about China since the "common sense" has been so much ill-informed by the media and rights groups. You are torturing innocent souls while you feel you are doing it for JUSTICE and HUMAN RIGHTS!

Google these words:
1. Tibet Diary
2. Michael Parenti - Tibet
3. common dream china hypocrisy

YES! NO KIDDING! WORDS TO LIVE BY...

Anonymous (April 22, 2008 @ 10:20pm):

It seems pretty clear that more than just the 5 mascosts were provided by the Chinese consulate. I mean, what Chinese student has a giant national or olympic flag hanging around their apartment? Speaking of tools of government...

Anonymous (April 23, 2008 @ 12:00am):

Olympic game belongs to the world; Tibet belongs to China.
Please be open-minded.

I encourage you to watch the following clips.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQhDll880Y4

It is certainly a lot pain to see a rising China, I understand your pain. But it is the truth.
Tibet, part of China since 13th century, accounts for 25% territory of China, you are too native to think that China would allow it happen.

The military action against the 5% noble class in Tibet in 1950s was due to their refusal of abolishment of slavery. It was an internal affair, an invasion. Those masters of poor slaves and their ancestors have the freedom to flee anywhere they want, but they have to leave Tibet alone.

Anonymous (April 23, 2008 @ 7:35am):

I am not sure how many national flags "were provided" by Chinese consulate. But I am a Chinese who donated one flag to the student! I also printout 200 leaflets because I am also so angry about the whole thing since last month! Every Chinese, wether in US or China, is ANGRY that the politicians and media double standard our home country!

I am also worried that the Americans will be mis-educated by this media and start a new round of anti-China hate. What will happen once the hates from both sides conflict? A war?? I am kidding, the weapon manufacturers have been exaggerating China power for a long long time! They are worried they are going to lose their job after Iraq!

We are in a recession - a recession caused by irresponsible mortgage lenders and agressive globalization started by the corp. We should work with the Chinese to reduce our trade decifict and stablize US dollars. We should use our Iraq money to build power plants, trains and other renewable facilities to create jobs and reduce the demand of petrol. We should not just blame China as a person who robbed our house and oils! Because China's development can not be stopped.And, who invited all these changes - this Country!!!

Let's go back to the national flags. Even the Chinese government supported this demonstration, so what? What's wrong with Chinese government supporting their kids? Their kids feel they have been mistreated in a foreign country! The kids want to voice out to express their anger!!!

US government supports the Tibetan groups. Why shouldn't the Chinese government support their students???!!!

Do you know the meaning of Hypocrisy??!!!

Think about all these. We don't want war, we want peace! China is not Iraq or Iran, a war means the end of human history.

Anonymous (April 23, 2008 @ 3:08pm):

to "It seems pretty clear that more than just the 5 mascosts were provided by the Chinese consulate. "
Why do you think it seems pretty clear? Do you have any evidence? Just imagination or assumption is stupid!
I personally print three hundreds of black and white flyers and 20 color flyers by my own printer. I know some chinese students bring the national flag that they own personally. I also know that the chinese students donate money volunteerly to buy lots of flags from China.

Anonymous (April 23, 2008 @ 3:09pm):

The point about the Chinese consulate supporting the protest is that they encourage the young people to be angry about foreigners, and not all the people dying at home in mines, bought out/retired out cheaply, being displaced by development, losing houses to Beijing olympic building, or being dislocated by the games (all the migrant workers driven from the cities).

Notice how quickly the CCP called for an end to the protests against Carrefoure. Becuase they know it will eventually blowback on them like it did in June, 1989.

In the US, our media is biased, sure. But we have many different outlets to choose from (foreign news included). Most people here know that things like Fox News aren't really news but more like entertainment from Murdoch, Turner, etc. We aren't controlled by one central policy maker and we don't have to answer to someone like Jiang Yu...is my point i guess.

Anonymous (April 23, 2008 @ 4:29pm):

1. "The point about the Chinese consulate supporting the protest is that they encourage the young people to be angry about foreigners, and not all the people dying at home in mines, bought out/retired out cheaply, being displaced by development, losing houses to Beijing olympic building, or being dislocated by the games (all the migrant workers driven from the cities)."

The student was angry first, then the consulate "might" support them - nothing wrong with comforting kids being bullied. Dying miners, relocation for Olympics etc are all common for developing countries. Also, students are not victims of mines and Olympics, what should they be angry about? Do you feel more angry if someone insults you or someone else was insulted? Terrible logic!

2. "Notice how quickly the CCP called for an end to the protests against Carrefoure. Becuase they know it will eventually blowback on them like it did in June, 1989."

CCP didn't call for an end. They simply ask for constraint. I am beginning to doubt how much the west media exaggerated things in 1989 after I see what they did this time.

3. "In the US, our media is biased, sure. But we have many different outlets to choose from (foreign news included). Most people here know that things like Fox News aren't really news but more like entertainment from Murdoch, Turner, etc. We aren't controlled by one central policy maker and we don't have to answer to someone like Jiang Yu...is my point i guess."

Are you suggesting Fox is constantly lying, and nobody would care about the authenticity of the news but rather "entertained" by the fake news? Come on, give me a break!

Anonymous (April 23, 2008 @ 4:32pm):

I think many progressive-minded Americans rankle at the idea of nationalism being stirred up as a justification for oppressive right-wing regimes (CCP & Bush Admin. included). Especially when it just means more repression: ie: Patriot Act, Chinese crackdowns etc...

As Samuel Johnson said, "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels." Surely this phrase takes on even more importance in a globalizing world.

Anonymous (April 23, 2008 @ 6:19pm):

As a global power, the Chinese government should expect to be criticized by others. It seems to me that the angry outbursts by students and party organs is a bit of an overreaction to a common occurrence in global politics. Russia, USA, England, regularly are criticized in the world community. Also, a critique of a government does not mean a critique of its people. People shouldn't be so easily offended, it comes with the territory of global politics.

Anonymous (April 23, 2008 @ 6:55pm):

]�Dying miners, relocation for Olympics etc ]are all common for developing countries� ]Also, students are not victims of mines and ]Olympics, what should they be angry about?�

This line of thinking is precisely why China shouldn�t have gotten the Olympics this year. To say that economic development outweighs the lives of thousands (in the mining industry alone..not to mention the environment), is the very definition of human rights violation. And just because one is not personally being victimized means that one shouldn�t care about the plight of other humans?

Protest against this sentiment is what Hu Jia got jailed last month for. Human rights are more important than development.

]��nothing wrong with comforting kids being ]bullied.�

I don�t think the Chinese students are being bullied at all. People are protesting the policies of the CCP, not the people. If China had another political party, more forward-thinking and humane than the CCP, I think many in the US would show support for them and the Olympics. In my mind, it�s not a question of protesting Chinese people but denouncing the CCP. These are two different things, I believe.

And, yes, many Americans consider Fox News a joke. (Faux News, Fox Noise).

Anonymous (April 23, 2008 @ 8:35pm):

to Anonymous (April 23, 2008 @ 6:55pm)

1. "And just because one is not personally being victimized means that one shouldnâ??t care about the plight of other humans? "

I didn't say the students shouldn't care about other victims, but they probably won't care as much as Tibet issue. Human beings are selfish - just our human nature. Nobody are saints. The communist China was established on the belief that humans are not selfish, but eventually it failed. A lot of people like to help others, probably you and I, is because by helping others it generates a certain "satisfaction" and a feeling of "becoming a sort of good guy" - so helping others are selfish too!

2. "People are protesting the policies of the CCP, not the people. If China had another political party..."
I agree the CCP has lots of problems, but in Olympics and Tibet, the interest of the government and Chinese people are the same. When the west media and politicians try to humiliating China with biased reports, every Chinese are offended. This is similar to Jeramiah Wright - when he spreads the extreme racist and anti American words, almost all Americans are offended. I think the Tibetan groups and Falun Gong are doing the same thing - spreading hates by citing controversial "evidence".

3. OK. Maybe your are right about Fox - but I am not sure what the conservatives would think about your comments. Also, the media watchdog should have already suspended FOX if they are indeed so problematic.

Anonymous (April 23, 2008 @ 9:03pm):

HRTR's outreach director, Susan Prager, is also the communication director of "Friends of Falun Gong", a quasai-government non-profit founded by fmr. Congressman Tom Lanto's wife, and Ambassador Mark Palmer of the NED.

Non-profit information found in the public records (GuideStar.org for example) shows our Congress has injected over 6 million dollars to promote Falun Gong's intensely anti-Chinese message,

Anonymous (April 23, 2008 @ 9:05pm):

"As a global power, the Chinese government should expect to be criticized by others."

A lot of times, they are not criticizing, they are making up things to spread hates. For example, the west never admitted what happened in Tibet a month ago was simply criminal riots which killed innocent civilians. Instead, they want us to believe the Chinese troops killed 130 Tibetans. Criticizing doesn't equal fabrication.

Anonymous (April 23, 2008 @ 10:58pm):

"Instead, they want us to believe the Chinese troops killed 130 Tibetans."

I think most responsible western media outlets attribute this as a Tibetan activist claim. Most articles I've read show both the CCP claims to 15 Chinese dead as well as the 130 Tibetan count as well. They show both in the accounts I've seen so far. We will probably never know for sure now since the journalists were driven out.

Also, to call them simply "criminal riots" ignores the deep-rooted ethnic tensions. It's like saying that the LA riots in 1992 was some minor thing--when it clearly revealed deep faults in American society between blacks/whites.

Anonymous (April 24, 2008 @ 1:35am):

Every penny is raised from Chinese in Madison. We specifically refused to receive any funding from any organization, including the Chinese Student and Scholar's Association. Contrary to the general belief held, CSSA had contact the chinese consulate in chicago, and their response is to discourage the event being held, for fear of anything out of control. The last thing the government wants before the olympics is another incident or two.

Back to the flags. As one of many who did their part of support, I have one of my friend in Shanghai order and send 400 handy flags via Fedex. The total cost is $200, paid from the money donated. I also know that some (~30) of the bigger flags were ordered on ebay, using the donation money.

I just want to let the facts speak for themselves.

This precisely shows the problem with some Americans: you have presumptions about China, a communist monster from the cold war. Partial media reports, altered facts, and imaginations are used to support the presumption. But this is far from the true China. Now who is being brainwashed?

Anonymous (April 24, 2008 @ 8:14am):

"I think most responsible western media outlets attribute this as a Tibetan activist claim"

Some did and some didn't. A lot of media simply use the tibetan's groups figure and didn't mention the govenment's at all.

I live in Milwaukee area and listen to Charlie Sykes show every morning. I have been his fan until one day he was talking about boycutting Olympics. Everything he quoted is from Tibetan groups. Obviously most of the callers would support the idea of boycutting Olympics if what the Tibetan groups said were true. Only one caller (an American) said he actually lived in Tibet and tended to believe communist's propanganda. The caller further pointed out China's minority policy is better than the US policies towards blacks and hispanics. The host was outraged and blamed the caller for "buying communist propoganda". One caller said she changed her mind after she heard the Chinese troops killed 130. I would say any listener except those who have been there will support the host.

The other bigger media used both sides figures but are obviously biased - they typically described and commented the whole thing on the assumption that the Chinese troops killed 130 civilians. The only thing they did is to give one sentence at the end of the last paragraph quoting the Chinese figure.

"Also, to call them simply "criminal riots" ignores the deep-rooted ethnic tensions"

1. Not matter whatever the reason is, it is a criminal action to kill a human being!

2. If you go to a prison, a lot of them are minorities. A lot of them are for sure caused by "deep-rooted ethnic tensions". What should we do about these "tension victims"? Free them?

3. A lot of the "deep-rooted ethnic tensions" is encouraged by the west. Voice of America and Radio Free Asia together with Tibet goverment in exile especially Tibet Youth Congress are pouring gas on top of the fire. What's the difference between them and Jeramiah Wrights?

4. This world is far from being equal. Even the power of defining equality is not equal. In China and other developing country, stability, enough food to live by, development are probably more important. If everybody goes to dig the "deep-rooted tension" for criminals, there might be a civil war again because people there are less educated and tend to do emotional and extreme things. Think about the cultural revolution - when everybody was "digging deep-rooted tensions among different social classes". China is still a giant baby, irresponsible and biased blaming can only turn it into a bad boy. Give them more time and more productive critics.

Anonymous (April 24, 2008 @ 8:32am):

Here is a link of interview with the founder of Falun Gong, Li Hongzhi, by TIME in 1999:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview1.html

In the interview, Li said the aliens from other planets are controlling humans to invent weapons, computers and other machines to destroy each other. I think the Chinese government probably didn't do a good job on Falun Gong, but this thing is so absurd...

Li claimed 100 million people practicing Falun Gong in China. If 100 million Americans believed people are aliens flying around killing each other, what bush will do?

The right groups never want you to know this story.

Anonymous (April 24, 2008 @ 3:42pm):

2. If you go to a prison, a lot of them are minorities. A lot of them are for sure caused by "deep-rooted ethnic tensions". What should we do about these "tension victims"? Free them?

--This is very true. But, only by tackling the social causes of this kind of tension will real progress toward the problem be made. The Paris riots from several years ago are another good example. The predominantly African and mideastern people protested discrimination by the majority French and then were just arrested. If the social conditions leading to the uprising are ever addressed in France, I'm willing to venture that a good deal of that type of violence will be curbed in the future. Same with USA.

3. A lot of the "deep-rooted ethnic tensions" is encouraged by the west. Voice of America and Radio Free Asia together with Tibet goverment in exile especially Tibet Youth Congress are pouring gas on top of the fire. What's the difference between them and Jeramiah Wrights?

--I think the reality of mass Han settling in Tibet is the greatest source of the ethnic tensions. I'm sure that western commentators do encourage tension to a degree, but I think the argument that people automatically take what they hear on the media to heart as being a bit simplistic. If you don't agree, turn the channel. The media doesn't control everything, as many recent arguments suggest. The Jeremiah Wright is a perfect example. He--and others like him--preach a specific rhetoric that is protected by the First Ammendment in the states. This type of preaching has gone on in black churches for a long time. It has only became an issue recently because of Obama. Even radical voices like Wright's have the right to be heard, even if we may not agree with them. If we don't, we can choose another preacher. Just because a person--commentator, citizen, preacher--says something doesn't mean that it automatically becomes accepted by individuals, or society at large.

4. This world is far from being equal. Even the power of defining equality is not equal. In China and other developing country, stability, enough food to live by, development are probably more important.

--I think there is a balance to be struck here. Yes the emphasis should be placed on sustainable growth and feeding people. But when so much money goes into putting people into space and building all these fancy buildings for the Olympics it makes one wonder if true development is the goal or just a public display of symbols of pride and prestige. Beijing has had 7 years to work hard to improve conditions.

Certainly the economy has taken off, true, but I think that development involves more than just making money and telling people to stop spitting on the sidewalk. Much of the social inequality hasn't improved in these 7 years, it has probably worsened. If China is taking a methodical approach to development, why not wait another 4 years until the social conditions can really be addressed (there are more reasonable approaches besides Cultural revolution totalitarianism, i think), and not just the ability to build nice facilities.

Anonymous (April 24, 2008 @ 4:19pm):

to Anonymous (April 24, 2008 @ 3:42pm):

"If you don't agree, turn the channel. The media doesn't control everything, as many recent arguments suggest. "

Yes, if it is about Jeramiah Wright, you can turn the channel. However, if it is about China - every channel is the same unless they have satelite TV and watch CCTV 9. Although we are debating here, I am sure your reports will be much more objective than CNN, FOX, CBS or whatever. Most Americans never go to the website and dig comments like you and me are doing. They watch CCN or Fox, see the pictures, and wow - bloody Chinese communies!

Anonymous (April 24, 2008 @ 7:38pm):

--Yes, if it is about Jeramiah Wright, you can turn the channel. However, if it is about China - every channel is the same unless they have satelite TV and watch CCTV 9. Although we are debating here, I am sure your reports will be much more objective than CNN, FOX, CBS or whatever. Most Americans never go to the website and dig comments like you and me are doing. They watch CCN or Fox, see the pictures, and wow - bloody Chinese communies!
=====

Fair point. Although the main networks do play up the "bloody communists" angle, at the issue's core, the current events remain repressive, in my mind at least. A more accurate characterization of CCP structure might be a hyper-capitalist autocracy, but the result of the oppression remains the same. The Olympic values of an open, free society aren't being followed. Since dissenters and activists like Hu Jia get jailed, foreign journalists shut out and multi-use visas being discontinued in Hong Kong this past month.

This recent trend of performing Olympic ceremonies in front of hand-picked supporters is another tactic used by closed societies, which is against the Olympic spirit I feel.

I'm saddened when Chinese are oppressed by their own government, then defend it, but I realize it is their issue. I do, however, want to stand up when the CCP takes its repressive strategies abroad and makes cities in the Olympic relay like little police states. Many people's feelings are hurt when the torch guard strongmen surround the torch in other cities where there isn't such a repressive system. And it makes it more insulting when since the torch is actually IOC property.

In my field of public health, free access to information is viewed as vital to maintaining a healthy society. I don't want to speculate about American and Chinese people's attitudes, I just am talking about the government policies that I feel detract from public health.

I can see how western media is condescending and judgemental against the Chinese government. They should do more homework. But this doesn't change the facts of oppression.

Anonymous (April 25, 2008 @ 12:17am):

This Falun Gong-sponsored faux torch relay has congressional link.

Susan Prager, the outreach director of HRTR, is also the communications director of "Friends of Falun Gong" a government founded non-profit that has funneled over 6 million dollars to promot Falun Gong's intensely anti-Chinese political message.

http://falungongpolitics.blogspot.com/

Anonymous (April 26, 2008 @ 8:25am):

"I'm saddened when Chinese are oppressed by their own government, then defend it, but I realize it is their issue".

There are different issues. Taiwan and Tibet are considered as national security - the republic is under the threat of being split. Almost all Chinese including those in mainland and overseas, support the government. China has been a victime of west colonialism for two centuries. The fact that Mongolia became an independant country is a good example - where the Russians wanted a "buffer zone". Tibet is also viewed by most Chinese that the British wanted a buffer zone between their former colony India and China. I believe this is true. The US took over British's heritage after India became independent. You can check Michael Parenti's history book on Tibet. As a matter fact, between 1910 and 1949, China was under numerious civil wars and foreign invasions. A lot of Chinese territeries were colony or semi-colonies. Like Manchurian, Shandong, Shanghai and Tibet. After the civil war, China just took them back. Some wasn't able to be taken back, like outer mongolia and some area near Burma. So you should understand that all Chinese have "deep-rooted distrust against westerners" in national security because they have been so deeply hurt not too long time ago. Taiwan might have already independant if the west didn't exist since China believe the west will use Taiwan as a military base to further invade China. China won't mind an independant Taiwan if there is no threat from the west. A couple of days ago, Dalai Lama said he wants to talk to Chinese brothers and sisters "internally" - a good example that he has realized the west could only make things worse.

Others are domestic issue, whether it is about tension between social classes, about free speech, about political freedom. If you talk to a Chinese, whether in China or US, you will notice the Chinese are constantly criticizing the government on these issues. At this point, the Chinese don't have a good solution yet. A good solution which could change these - whether to use the west model or a model which is more Asian, like Singaporean. The Chinese have to balance stability, democracy and development. As a matter of fact, there have been a lot of good changes. For example, at village level, it's a total democracy - the head of the village is generated by counting votes of all villagers. It is important that the Chinese find a way to solve the problem by themselves, not being "forced" by the west. Sometimes, I am not sure if the west really wants a real democracy in China because this will really buildup the muscle of China and it will eventually harm the interest of the west. Right now, the west parrots and puppies in China, are doing a great job as the agents of US and europe. Most of the globalization strategies are realized by these parrots and puppies.

Hope it helps understand Chinese a little better.

Anonymous (April 27, 2008 @ 1:55am):

Yes, its true, China has been a victim of Western colonization since the 1840s but I think you are also ignoring China's own history of internal colonization. Xinjiang wasn't really under Chinese control until it was invaded in the 1870s and the late Qing. Also, Tibet and the Western regions of China really weren't brought under "chinese control" until the 20th century. Essentially, they were Chinese buffers against the perceived "barbarians" of Turkic central asia and white russia. Following the tradition of having barbarians govern barbarians. As the Han ancestral lands lay in the Yangtze and Yellow river valleys far removed from real governance of these outlying regions.

Its true China was a victim of colonialism but it's to easy to deny China's own recent history of imperialism. How quickly the oppressed becoming the oppressors.

And internal oppression of Chinese must be the same issue as oppression of Tibet and outlying areas. Otherwise, you are admitting that Tibetans and other minorities are second class citizens--which they already seem to be. If China is a truly multi-ethnic nation that it claims to be and not strictly a Han de-facto state then there has to be some acknowledgment that the oppression against tibetans is also oppression against "Chinese."

Or the Hans could just let the tibetans retain their autonomy. So called "patriotic education" is merely an attempt to make them bow to the Han majority. China should learn from the US past mistakes with native americans. How quickly the oppressed become the oppressors.

Anonymous (April 27, 2008 @ 4:16pm):

I don't believe the wishful claim that Chinese people can criticize their government. There are 48 documented Cyber-dissidents in prison and 31 journalists behind bars there.

And this does not even count the unreported cases of unrest in the countryside when stormtroopers are called in to crush peasant revolts.

I dare anyone to show up at Tiananmen and display a sign protesting the government. The plain clothes secret police would be on top of them right away. And this happens there everyday.

It might be easy to turn a blind eye to government abuse if you aren't a Han, or you haven't lost your house to a mass-building project, or had family members killed in unsafe working conditions by robber barons. This happened in the US too. We had journalists like Upton Sinclair and other "muckrakers" to blow the whistle on such abuses.

Anonymous (April 27, 2008 @ 8:08pm):

Totally clueless comment.

1. "Xinjiang wasn't really under Chinese control until it was invaded in the 1870s and the late Qing."

Evidence?

2. "Also, Tibet and the Western regions of China really weren't brought under "chinese control" until the 20th century."

Evidence? Check out the map of the Han, Tang, Yuan, Ming and Qing Dynasties.

3. "Essentially, they were Chinese buffers against the perceived "barbarians" of Turkic central ..." Xinjiang itself has lots of turkic people, buffer zone to buffer itself??

4. "So called "patriotic education" is merely an attempt to make them bow to the Han majority. "
Tell me how? How much do you know about the "patriotic education". Give me more evidences about how China "oppresses" minorities.

By the way, my previous comment was simply to prove that your comment "I'm saddened when Chinese are oppressed by their own government, then defend it, but I realize it is their issue." was absurd. Do you agree? Ask my question before you switch to other topics.

Anonymous (April 28, 2008 @ 12:50pm):

My point is simply that if China counts Tibetans as "Chinese" then the oppression against Tibetans is also oppression against Chinese.

What this really reveals is that "Chinese" actually means Han ethnicity. Only when there is unrest are the minorities considered part of China.

Evidence for the oppression in the case of Tibet is most obvious by the fact that since the beginning of the invasion in 1950 their religious freedoms have been severely limited. And recently with the rail link to the mainland, more Han are coming in to build up the area with unsightly concrete buildings that threaten the cultural uniqueness of Tibetans.

The same goes for places like Yunnan where "old" "minority" cities like Lijiang are surrounded by filthy urban sprawls and locals like the Naxi are encased like exhibits in a museum.

I have first hand evidence as I have travelled extensively throughout southern China collecting data on public health.

As for evidence from Tibet, it is difficult to attain because the CCP has created an information blackout there so the very argument that you are making about lack of evidence can be made.

And on patriotic education, its been documented that one aspect of it is to have the monks curse and denounce the Dalai Lama, which is essentially their god. How disgusting. Oh wait, you want us to believe that "patriotic education" is helping to correct their backwardness. Why don't we all go back to the 19th century when England and the US were preaching "white man's burden" as a justification for oppression in Asia.

As for Xinjiang, the place has changed hands so many times to so many different groups. Maybe you could claim the Tang, but maybe you could also claim the Qing. But wait, the Qing was a Manchu government. Since Chinese clearly means Han today--except during uprisings, how can you say that the Qing or Yuan were "Chinese" dynasties?

There is a discomforting trend of Chinese ultra-nationalists to oversimplify the history. This is like the Germans saying there were three glorious Reichs, when the Holy Roman Empire was really a confederation of different peoples and city states that shifted over time.

The sad thing about Chinese imperialism in the 1950s is it wasn't just about getting territory back from European and Japanese invaders, but it was to construct an idealized map of China and then take the lands from the weak. History repeats and the oppressed become the oppressors.

Anonymous (April 29, 2008 @ 8:33am):

I don't quite get your point. Looks like you are trying to say that each ethnic group should be limited to a certain area. Any movement could be identified as "imperalism". Also, I think you confused the definition of country with ethnic terrority. China is different from Chinese. The Manchu China is also China. The China part of Mango empire is China too. There are researches which show closer biological relationship between the Manchu/Mangolian and the Han Chinese in the north than the south han Chinese and the north Hans. There are legends talking about the Manchu and Mangolians were tribes moving out of the Huangdi group (common ancestors of all Chinese). Indeed "Chinese" is a cultural term - where all the "Han Chinese" speak the same language, similar tradition and customs etc. The "Han Chinese" are never a pure ethnic group. People in the northeast is probably closer to Korean and the Manchu biologically and the Cantonese should be more related to the Vietnamese. There is nothing we could achieve if we want to debate on the basis of races.

I agree the religious freedom was forbidden before 1980 - but that was everywhere in China . Almost all temples were destroyed by Mao. Even forbbiden city was threatened by the red guard. What's wrong with denonucement of Dalai Lama, if he has been working effortlessly to split the country. Religion should be over national security.

Tell me what's your suggestion is if you really want to help the people by capitalizing your China experience. I am just sick of people simply complaining things without facing realities.

Anonymous (April 29, 2008 @ 7:48pm):

As you said, these are complex problems. I don't see any easy solutions, although I think a good first step would be to do away with the colonial economic and demographic policies that have only the Han elite reaping the rewards of development in these areas.

If religious, travel, passport, and such restrictions were eased for the minorities, and the people allowed to truly govern themselves it would probably ease a lot of the tensions. The US has had a long history of similar problems in dealing with their own natives. Those might be good cases to look at for what not to do.

On the societal level, I think there has to be a greater cultivation of civic values among the majority Han people. As I see it, Chinese society is still clan-centric with strong family/group bonds. This creates an effect where one only cares about their "in-group." When seen on the larger scale, I think the same could be said of when dealing with "others" outside one's ethnic group. It is easy to villify others and turn a blind eye to persecution and oppression, except when it happens to you.

I think a civil society is the bedrock for a true democratic republic--ideal as it may be. When people don't share a common sense of civic--as opposed to ingroup--values, it is everyman for himself. I'm thinking of accident scenes or domestic abuse I've seen in China where people are lying hurt or beaten and nobody steps in to help. They just stand and watch, even laugh. Whats so ironic, is that traditional Chinese philosophy like Moism has ideas like universal love that can be shared by all people--without the religious baggage.

These are just my opinions. I don't know if as humans we'll ever overcome these problems, as western societies are also reaping the bitter harvest of their own oppressive history. But that doesn't mean we can't try!

Anonymous (April 30, 2008 @ 8:52pm):

What do you mean "colonial economic and demographic policies"? Building freeway and rails? Tibetans already have better opportunities than the Hans, as I was told they don't need to pay tax.

Are you suggesting we should restrict the free inflow of other ethnic groups? This will create more unfair competition. Well, maybe they should discuss how to educate the Tibetans about market economy and give them better policies for a few years. However, favorable policy can create loopholes for corruption.

In the future, when overseas Tibetans dropped their idea about independence, they can go back to do business - they might be surprised to know that Tibetans are not really that much "oppressed" though.

I don't know what the restrictions of "religion, travel and passport for minorities" are.

Good point about civic value. The cultural revolution, together with the free market money worship did too much destruction to Chinese souls after the dream of communism bust. Well, I am a firm believer that the divinity remained in human beings will eventually wake up and recover its position, of course, with the existence of other human natures like greed and lust - but at least at a better position.

In my opinion the west IS still oppressing others, not just reaping its oppressing history. The fact that the Anglo-Americans are so outraged by the weapon export to Zimbabwe is a good example - they don't want to give up their farms inherited from their colonist ancestors!

Of course most of the time the oppressing is carried out by its agents. Bin Ladin and Sadam were both their agents against the Russians and Iranians. It's interesting to see these agents were overconfident and lost their minds - they bargained too much with their clients!

When the Russians retreats and the Chinese grows up, the interest groups are anxious to buildup a new market - making weapons by cultivating hatred against Chinese. Dalai Lama, as a rising star, is another agent.

We don't want nuclear bombs, we want bread and love.

Part of the Chinese economic miracle is contribute to reduced numbers of troops. Although the military budget is growing, but the proportion is much less than what it was 30 years ago. The US should learn from China on this issue - bring the troops back and have them build more nuclear power stations, drill more domestic oil and develop more public transit system. Let the Arabic and Jews figure out their own issues. I don't believe that Iran would dare to start a war against Israel once US troops pull out. Everybody, including the Jews in Israel, is fed up with the wars.

Anonymous (April 30, 2008 @ 9:12pm):

Anonymous (May 2, 2008 @ 2:25am):

Yeah I don't disagree with you on the American colonial issues in Iraq. It is shameful. It should never have happened. As for Russia, I hope China will one day become a more humanitarian power in the region. Compared to Putin's Russia/east asia, I think China is well on the way to gaining the moral high ground. But areas like Tibet and Xinjiang, if handled a little more gently, could work in China's favor.

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Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 9:39pm):

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Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 9:58pm):

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Anonymous (April 21, 2008 @ 10:47pm):