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Still no go for concealed weapons in Wisconsin
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by Carolyn Potts
Friday, March 7, 2008
As states across the country continue to pass laws allowing concealed weapons on college and university campuses, Wisconsin shows no signs of following suit.
Since 1871, the state of Wisconsin has had a ban on carrying concealed weapons. Now, it is one of only two states in the country to still have a ban on concealed carry, the other state being Illinois. Even though most states allow the carrying of a concealed weapon in the general public, almost all universities and colleges around the country have had a ban on their campuses.
The Arizona state Senate Judiciary Committee approved a bill last week that would allow people ages 21 and up with concealed weapon permits to carry guns on college campuses in the state. There are 15 states around the country considering similar legislation.
However, Sen. Fred Risser, D-Madison, said Wisconsin currently has proposed no legislation to allow the carrying of concealed weapons in this state, on college campuses or not, and he doesn’t expect there will be any in the future.
State Rep. Frank Lasse, R-Green Bay, tried to get a bill passed last year to allow teachers in public schools to carry concealed weapons but was quickly shot down by the Legislature.
According to Dale Burke, assistant chief of the University of Wisconsin Police, law enforcement has always opposed the carrying of concealed weapons in Wisconsin.
“The state has had a prohibition against concealed carry for over 100 years, and we see no reason to change that now,” Burke said. “Especially since our society is getting more violent and there have been more gun deaths and school shootings, why would we want to allow more people to carry guns?”
Some say allowing concealed weapons is that they could aid in self defense in situations such as muggings, rapes or even school shootings, like recent incidents at Virginia Tech and Northern Illinois University.
UW philosophy professor Lester Hunt said the trouble with guns is that they end up in the hands of the wrong people.
“With the right people they are a good deterrent and they can be used for protection. … There is a lot of anecdotal evidence to show [this],” Hunt said.
Burke said law enforcement officers understand supporters of concealed weapons may be well-intentioned, but it is not realistic to think that just because someone is armed he or she can save the world.
“Some people believe that arming everybody is the solution to reducing the violent crimes that currently exist in society,” Burke said. “Most law enforcement people don’t believe this is true; we think this is very irrational. We don’t want more bullets flying around.”
Risser said allowing a law like this to be passed would be a mistake.
“I think this is a very bad policy,” Risser said. “I can’t see any purpose to students carrying guns on campus. I think it would only contribute to the dangers of a campus community.”
Hunt said if criminals know there are potentially people carrying weapons on a college campus, this would help to prevent criminals from taking action.
“There are certain places in society that weapons are banned, such as post offices, schools and churches, but if you ever notice, these are the places that shootings tend to happen,” Hunt said. “You never hear about this kind of thing happening in a bar because you know that they have a baseball bat and gun behind the counter.”
Burke said organizations like the National Rifle Association play on people’s fear so more lenient gun laws will be passed, adding the NRA wants anyone to be able to get a concealed weapons permit if they pass a simple criminal history check, but law enforcement officers think this is not enough.
“What if someone has a mental disease? It doesn’t check that. The record check is a snapshot in time. … It’s only good for so much,” Burke said.
For Burke, concealed weapons have less of a place on a college campus than they do in any other setting.
“College campuses are overwhelmingly safer places than your average town or city,” Burke said.
State Rep. Scott Suder, R-Abbotsford, said legislators will have a discussion about changing Wisconsin’s laws regarding carrying concealed weapons in the near future.
“I do think in the near future we will have the right to carry weapons to protect ourselves, our families and our friends,” Suder said.
Anonymous (March 7, 2008 @ 3:04am):
I agree, the university police should not have those intimating tools of destruction. Why can't all the police forces in this area use carrots? Make pie not war.
- Germain E. Stemme
Anonymous (March 7, 2008 @ 6:14am):
The people of Wi. need to loudly voice their displeasure with politicians denying their right to carry. Either.both in the elections and write letter after letter to their politicians with their intentions to elect someone who will stand up for their second amendment rights.
Anonymous (March 7, 2008 @ 8:29am):
Some people believe that arming everybody is the solution to reducing the violent crimes that currently exist in society, Burke said. Most law enforcement people dont believe this is true; we think this is very irrational. We dont want more bullets flying around.
Could Mr Burke cite his source please? I don't for once believe that most law enforcement want private citizens left defenseless. I'd like to see the study that backs up his contention.
Anonymous (March 7, 2008 @ 9:24am):
It's true - I don't have a concealed carry permit yet. I'm just happy to see you.
- Germain Q. Stemme
Anonymous (March 7, 2008 @ 1:16pm):
What is so pathetic about this is that the other 48 states allow it, which PROVES all the fears Democrats have about concealed carry are totally false! With the high profile murder or the Miller Brewing executive leaving a restaurant in Milwaukee last month, you'd think this bill would be a slam dunk to pass.
Maybe in Madison where you don't experience the level of muggings and violent crime that we do in Milwaukee, you don't see the need for it. But believe me, all the criminals already are carrying, why should it be a crime to defend myself?
Anonymous (March 7, 2008 @ 4:34pm):
Here is an email I wrote to Assistant Chief Burke after reading his quotes in this article.
Assistant Chief Burke,
My name is John Anderson and I am a student here at UW-Madison. Thank you for taking the time out of your day to read this email. I just read the article in the Badger Herald about how Wisconsin is one of only two states in America to not allow any form of concealed carry. I noticed that you were quoted in the article several times and I just had a few quick questions about your statements. I won't be offended if you do not respond to this email, I understand you're busy, but there are just a few things I can't help but ask.
The first quote of yours I'd like to look at goes as follows: "...Especially since our society is getting more violent and there have been more gun deaths and school shootings, why would we want to allow more people to carry guns?"
Since this is phrased as a question, I will attempt to answer it. We would want to allow more people to carry guns because a populace that can defend itself is infinitely times safer than one that cannot. I would like to think that the Madison Police could protect my fellow students and me everyday but the truth is simple, they cannot. I attend several classes throughout the campus every day, do you know how many officers I see? No more than two officers every day over the course of the entire day. This is not enough of a presence to protect a campus and student body of Madison's size. I go to lectures everyday in which a murderous person could easily cause massive amounts of carnage and death. We are sitting ducks in our lecture halls and classes, utterly and completely defenseless. Allowing lawful students with concealed weapons permits to carry a concealed weapon would dramatically increase our safety overall. I personally, and many other students as well I'm sure, would much rather be able to return fire on a murderous person than just pray that the police are coming and that the shooter is low on ammunition.
The next quote I'd like to mention is as follows: "Some people believe that arming everybody is the solution to reducing violent crimes that currently exist in society"
First of all I don't think anybody besides the completely insane think that arming everybody is a good idea. However the vast majority of the nation believes that it is a good idea to arm responsible citizens. We are a backwards state, you yourself mention that our ban is over 100 years old, we must get with the times.
You go on to say: "Most law enforcement people don't believe this is true, we think it is very irrational..."
You're right, it is irrational to arm everybody. What is far more irrational however is our outdated policy to not allow law-abiding citizens the means to defend themselves.
Later in the article you mention that the National Rifle Association plays on peoples fear so that more lenient gun laws will be passed.
The NRA doesn't need to waste its time and resources playing on peoples fears. I'm not afraid of a school shooter because of the NRA. I am afraid of it because it happens! Virginia Tech, NIU, and other recent school shootings were not made up by the NRA, they actually happened, and with horrendous consequences. I (and other students) are afraid not because of the NRA, but because of terrible recent realities.
The last quote of yours that caught my interest is: "College campuses are overwhelmingly safer places than your average town or city"
I don't see how this could possibly be correct. I haven't heard of any recent "town" or "city massacres" where tens of innocent students have been murdered. How is a town or city safer? In a college, if a person is willing to commit mass murder, it's all too easy. Everybody is completely unarmed (under the false illusion that the police are protecting them) and are sitting in a giant room with relatively few exists. How is this safer than a town or city? I feel much safer walking around my home town of Milwaukee, Wisconsin than I do sitting here in a lecture hall.
Again, thank you very much for your time. This email was not to be in any way disrespectful to you or any other members of the Madison Police Department. I personally am pursuing a major in criminal justice and minor in computer sciences and someday hope to be an FBI or DEA agent. I look forward to hearing back to you, but don't feel obligated to respond.
Sincerely
John F. Anderson
Anonymous (March 7, 2008 @ 5:37pm):
What is interesting is Burke's irrational argumentation, something apparently quite common in the anti-gun corner. Some examples:
1) Especially since our society is getting more violent and there have been more gun deaths and school shootings, why would we want to allow more people to carry guns?
Burke should explain how a concealed carry bill would allow more people to carry guns than are already allowed to carry guns.
2) "...it is not realistic to think that just because someone is armed he or she can save the world."
Generally one is only trying to save one's own hide or that of an innocent person, not "the world."
3) "Some people believe that arming everybody is the solution to reducing the violent crimes that currently exist in society, Burke said. Most law enforcement people dont believe this is true; we think this is very irrational. We dont want more bullets flying around.
Presumably Burke would oppose having more police for the very same reason?
4) Burke said organizations like the National Rifle Association play on peoples fear so more lenient gun laws will be passed, adding the NRA wants anyone to be able to get a concealed weapons permit if they pass a simple criminal history check, but law enforcement officers think this is not enough.
What if someone has a mental disease? It doesnt check that. The record check is a snapshot in time. Its only good for so much, Burke said.
Um, who is playing on peoples' fears here???? The very thing he accuses the NRA of doing!
Anonymous (March 8, 2008 @ 3:10pm):
You, Burke, Risser et all forget one thing. Wisconsin only prohibits the carry of concealed weapons. There is no Wisconsin state statute that prohibits the carry of visible weapons on a college or university. State law only prohibits the carry of visible weapons in places that sell on sale alcohol, Government buildings, motor vehicles and school zones with schools of grades 1 through 12. Ih fact the strict prohibition of concealed carry and Article I section 25 of the State Constitution provide a constitutional authority for the carry of visible weapons for self protection.
Anonymous (March 9, 2008 @ 11:59pm):
Its easy to understand the fear and the need for self defense that so many students are experiencing. We all have been shocked, saddened, angered, and bewildered by the shootings at NIU. Still, it is important not to let our realistic fears become over-blown and stampede us into actions we may regret. I think the idea of having concealed weapons on campus would be a mistake for the following reasons: 1) There is no proof that it would prevent crime. The recent study by the National Academies (Firearms and Violence, 2005) concluded that concealed carry legislation did not reduce crime, and 2) There is good reason to think that more guns on campus might lead to more mayhem. It is well known that the southern states which have the highest gun ownership have much higher homicide and suicide rates than the New England states with low gun ownership. In other words, just having guns around is a danger in itself.
We are faced with a terrible situation throughout society and there is no easy answer. Lets not make it worse by embracing the solution of the NRA. Remember these are the guys who brought us all of the guns in the first place and now they claim we need even more to protect ourselves. Wed be better off thinking in terms of less radical solutions such as improved security, locked doors, more cops, metal detectors, psychological and criminal background checks, etc.
And while we try to sort this out we should also think more seriously about where our penchant for violence comes from in the first place. Who are these psychos that kill and whats with slasher movies and cage fighting?
Anonymous (May 5, 2008 @ 5:25pm):
Most "Police Chiefs" are political appointees and will follow the dictates of their master. I have not yet met a street cop who is against lawful concealed carry. The chiefs represent their masters,not the cop that's doing the work.
Anonymous (June 5, 2008 @ 3:20pm):
With all but two states allowing concealed carry, the empircal evidence now exists as to the historical relationship between the number of crimes before and after these states allowed concealed carry. I have not seen one state reverse their conceal carry law. Certainly if these states were now having an increase in gun related crimes, they would be reversing their positions.
The real facts exist with these states that have allowed conceal carry. Get these facts for the Wisconsin citizens. If there is not an obvious increase in crime, let's get the right for conceled carry passed in Wisconsin. Wisconson citizens deserve the same opportunity for increased security and the ability to protect themselves afforded the citizens living in the concealed carry states.
David C. Finkbiner
60 year old father of three,
Grandfather of three, and a
Non NRA member
Wausau, WI
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