How is is that someone like Althouse, who has not heard what the students have had to say, so sure about what truly happened? It’s frightening that someone who acclaims herself to be intelligent would cling so desperately on to the story that she wants to be true. What’s even more frightening is the fact that Althouse is supposed to be training the lawyers of tomorrow to be able to think analytically. Buying one story without hearing the other—> analytical? NO.

althouse heard the student side of the story; we all did. her point on media coverage is that the student story was for the most part the only one presented. kaplan is much more credible than the student who was not in the class who sent the initial bullshit email which she admits was not well informed.

here is what you should fear: a law student who starts crying because a professor asks her to refute his claims with facts. would you want that type of a person as your lawyer?

I know what you mean “8:58.” I feel the same way about students who were not present in the class, yet can make such serious accusations. And now that we know the context and the actual statements, it is much more difficult to maintain my false sense of self-righteousness against Kaplan. But I am sure we we will still try.

The point Althouse is trying to make is that she’s a media whore by trying to use this as her platform.

reply to first poster…at least she has the guts to go on record…do you?

Where is the link to the statement?

From 8:58am comment: “How is is that someone like Althouse, who has not heard what the students have had to say, so sure about what truly happened?”

From article: “KaShia Moua, who first circulated the e-mails, but was not in Kaplan's lecture herself, declined comment Monday.”

Most of this fire-storm was generated by someone who wasn’t in the class. Why shouldn’t Althouse (who I have no love for whatsoever) be allowed to comment as well? Grow up.

Is it so difficult to see how his comments could be taken out of context when quoted in an email sent by someone who didn’t even hear them first-hand?

If a law professor were to say “Young black men are inherently criminal and must be dealt with accordingly”, I’m sure there would be howls or racism, with good reason.

Of course, if that comment in context was: “So it appears that the federal government’s attitude about the drug war is ‘Young black men are inherently criminal and must be dealt with accordingly’”, that, of course, would not be racist, and would in fact be an effort to address the racism in this country in an upfront manner.

I think the problem in this case stems, in part, from the immense over-sensitivity found at a university in an extremely liberal small town in an extremely white state.

Far be it for me to criticize people for attempting to address what I feel is our nation’s biggest social proglem, but I’ve encountered numerous young people in Madison who get absolutely livid whenever race is mentioned in any context. That’s just a consequence of being young and sheltered (or just sheltered in the case of a lot of life-long Madison residents) and it does more harm than good by giving racism-deniers ammunition. As you get older and more experienced you’ll be able discern the difference between invidious discrimination and misunderstandings. Until then, please keep the shrill cries to a minimum and avoid destroying the good name of a presumably good professor.

I’m with you, anonymous. Althouse is quick to say that “she didn’t think the students’ version was quite right” but “his version seems quite credible.” How the hell is she an authority on what “sounds right??” Just like most of us, she wasn’t in the classroom that day and is depending on half-assed media coverage that didn’t get many of the facts straight. Also, she was so eager to tout acadamic freedom as a defense on her blog even before Kaplan released his statement, so she’d obviously made up her mind on the issue before hearing both sides. What an arrogant, self-important (fill in the blank).

Kaplan’s statement can be found at: http://www.news.wisc.edu/13525.html

How the hell is she an authority on what “sounds right??”

Maybe she’s thinking that as a law prof she might, just maybe, have some idea what another law prof would say during class?

“here is what you should fear: a law student who starts crying because a professor asks her to refute his claims with facts. would you want that type of a person as your lawyer?”

I’d want that person as the opposing lawyer. It would be a guaranteed win for me.

I think anyone with half a brain realized right away that the students’ take on the situation wasn’t “quite right”. If Kaplan was that racist I’m sure this would’ve come up long ago.

Response to 10:42

Know what’s scary? Is that the world is full of idiots who are so full of themselves they cannot acknowledge when they are wrong. Just like you don’t need to be present when a family member dies to feel the pain, the students who have spoken about the incident don’t need to be in the classroom when the statements were made to be impacted by them. If you believe that these students don’t have a right to be offended, then don’t you dare ever feel any emotions when you hear false statements made about your history and your culture.

Obviously you haven’t grown up; you still haven’t learned to hear both sides of the story before making a judgment. Unfortunately, there are so many ignorant people like you who are willing to just sit and absorb the censored information they’re being fed without questioning the validity of the information.

Sorry but it wouldn’t be a guaranteed win for you because you don’t believe in anything enough to stand up and challenge authority when they are clearly wrong. I’m sure if you reflect back upon your sheltered life, you cannot recall a time when you truly stood up against all odds for something you believe in. I’d want you as opposing counsel, because you’re too full of yourself to see the weaknesses in your story.

Of course Kaplan is a racist, who isn’t. And of course everything he state is truth, like Hmong are violent, and Hmong women are better off without Hmong men. Whether he implied it or not, it’s still the truth. Most of the time, people can’t handle the truth. This is a classic case of what happens when 2 different cultures meet and state truth about the other. Deal with it, and learn from it. If you don’t want to deal with it, move away from homogenous areas, and move to more cosmopolitan areas in the country. Obviously, someone would have to shoot me first for me to live in Wisconsin, but I’m sure it’s heaven for someone else.

These students can feel emotion but there is no need to have sympathy for students when they wage a war based on exaggerated claims and misquotes. Emotion is part of learning; leading the mob against an innocent professor is not. I lost any sympathy for this group of Hmong students a long time ago and lack respect for them because they cannot admit they were in many ways wrong. Also, this group was not against all odds. They manipulated the story to get a ton of support, and the group that went against the odds was the group of individuals willing to defend Kaplan against these bizarre accusations. These women need to grow up if they hope to be good lawyers, and that includes being able to discuss difficult issues in a course without letting their emotions cloud their judgment.

Professor Kaplan has refused to meet with the Hmong community and the public as was apparent by his absence this past week. On February 22, Dean Davis sent this letter out saying the following:

Note: The following is a February 22 letter written by UW Law School Dean Kenneth Davis to the law school community concerning the controversial classroom comments of law Professor Leonard Kaplan:

To the Law School Community,

“…Likewise, the Professor involved, Leonard Kaplan, has met at length with the students, and wants me to inform you that he stands ready to meet with any other students or groups who want to discuss his remarks.”

So why did he fail to come to the public discussion this past Thursday when Dean Davis publicly stated that Professor Kaplan “stands ready to meet with any other students or groups who want to discuss his remarks?”

TO ALL THAT IS NOT A MINORITY…

Please mind your own business. It is the HMONG against Professor Kaplan. If you think the Professor is SOOO RIGHT…where are his proofs about the Hmong huh?…. I see and hear about WHITE Americans killings eachother, thier children, their parents, sexually abusing their own daughters, and all the drug dealers and child molesters out there all the time. Kaplan has no right to talk or make comments about the Hmong in any shape, kind, or form.
It’s just like being at work, you being the only female and your boss making a stupid comment about that way you dress. You would feel disturbed and hurt. There’s no difference in the way we feel.
Kaplan is racist…if he’s man enough, he should admiit it. He won’t admit it because he knows that he’ll get fired and be sued.

You are clearly missing the point. Of course students want sensitive issues such as race discussed in the classroom. We all need to learn how to deal with such topics. Kaplan’s approach is an example of how it should NEVER be done, that’s the point.

The only manipulation that has occurred is that of Kaplan’s side of the story. TWO WEEKS it took him to respond. Are you kidding me? You want to talk about manipulation? Explain why it took him two weeks to say that he didn’t say those things? Is it perhaps because he wanted to come up with a strategy? I don’t think it would take any intelligent person TWO WEEKS to realize that they didn’t make those statements if there was any truth behind that assertion.

Woa. After reading his statements, I have to wonder what the Magnificent Seven have to say in response. I really feel like a lot of us owe him a bit of an apology.

You are all crazy if you think that Kaplan could have come to the forum and had any chance of making his points without turning the issue into a conflict. Those students lined up three external speakers, Kashia Moua, and the other group speakers. These individuals invited Kaplan to come to the event to “defend his racist beliefs.” That is a kangaroo court, and the blame for him not releasing the statement should fall on the Dean for failing to create an environment conducive to hearing all sides of the story.

Kaplan is not the problem, nor is his teaching approach. The problem is a group of students who could not fully understand the logic of cultural defense, Hmong assimilation, and the relationship between cultural norms and formal legal rules. Kaplan’s logic was too much for a sensitive group of students to handle.

*Professor Kaplan has refused to meet with the Hmong community and the public as was apparent by his absence this past week. On February 22, Dean Davis sent this letter out saying the following:

Note: The following is a February 22 letter written by UW Law School Dean Kenneth Davis to the law school community concerning the controversial classroom comments of law Professor Leonard Kaplan:

To the Law School Community,

“…Likewise, the Professor involved, Leonard Kaplan, has met at length with the students, and wants me to inform you that he stands ready to meet with any other students or groups who want to discuss his remarks.”

So why did he fail to come to the public discussion this past Thursday when Dean Davis publicly stated that Professor Kaplan “stands ready to meet with any other students or groups who want to discuss his remarks?”*

Kaplan was given the opportunity to speak on behalf of himself, and by not doing so during the forum, every student, teacher or citizen has the right to accuse him of doing wrong.

As a Professor, you are trained to be culturally, gender and religiously sensitive to students and faculty! As a Professor, you are suppose to explain the context of your lecture so their isn’t any tension. Instead, Kaplan insisted on his lecture without making any apologies before or after class. This shows what kind of professor this man is.

The only smart thing Kaplan did, was not use Black people as an example. Like say, Black women are better off now that Black men are either dying or in prison.

“It is the HMONG against Professor Kaplan.”

It IS my business to make sure that a mob of ignorant students stoked on rumors and lies don’t hang an innocent man - it’s everybody’s business!

The Irish had it far worse than the HMONG when they came to the USA yet you don’t see me whining every time I hear someboby say “Paddy Wagon”.

I can’t believe how thick skulled some people are. It is pretty clear from both the professor’s statement and the remarks of Nam Dao that he was misunderstood and taken out of context. It seems pretty clear his intent was not to offend. Stop the witch hunt!

“If you think the Professor is SOOO RIGHT…where are his proofs about the Hmong huh?….”

Big talk but where is YOUR PROOFS about what was said? Were you there? Or are you just basing all your hate speech on third-hand rumors?

TO ALL THAT IS NOT A MINORITY…

I think “to everyone who is not a minority” would be better. You may also want to forego the caps lock.

“Kaplan has no right to talk or make comments about the Hmong in any shape, kind, or form.”

If everyone had to subscribe to this type of thinking, intelligent racial dialogue in this country would cease to exist.

“As a Professor, you are trained to be culturally, gender and religiously sensitive to students and faculty!”

What kind of bizzaro world do you come from?

Or are you just an idiot?

The professors in this article clearly depicted themselves as being insensitive to others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am concern about the education my child is getting that this university.

A concern parent.

“As a Professor, you are trained to be culturally, gender and religiously sensitive to students and faculty! As a Professor, you are suppose to explain the context of your lecture so their isn’t any tension.”

Professors are not trained in this regard — they are professors because they have a Ph.D and publish research (at least at this institution, that’s how it works). Secondly, there is no requirement to avoid tension — indeed, tension is often considered healthy.

Sign me — not a minority but feeling free to comment in way, shape and form

The sad irony to all of this is that students who paid a tuition to be educated. Here's a free lesson from me to the students who actually paid to be taught.

Kaplan: “a Hmong man would go and buy himself a wife” I am a Hmong man and I have been living in the Minnesota for the past 27 years. I did not know that I can go out and buy a wife as a Hmong. I know a dowry has always been a part of the Hmong marriage history as in many other cultures. Can someone point me to where I can buy a wife?

Kaplan: "Hmong pay a price for a bride and are charged with rape may believe that they have paid too much”
Here's what the professor is trying to say. The professor's comment came across as Hmong rapists just pay the women to marry them. This is absolutely not true in our culture. This is the reason we have doctors, lawyers and people who specialize in their professions. While I don't fault the professor for his misleading comments, I would advise the professor to be a little more knowledgeable about the topic before lecturing to his students. Any good salesman would know his products before he tries to sell the products. In Kaplan's case, he read a chapter or 2 about the Hmong marriage based on someone's research and used it as an example. It's true that in Hmong history, a man can kidnapped a woman to be a wife in the past but always, the man and the woman have met and knew each other prior to the kidnapping. The term kidnapping is used here because the woman may have gone forcibly or willfully with the man, more so willfully than forcibly in Hmong past marriages. The tradition is that a man will take a woman home for 3 days. Within hours of the kidnapping, the man must send representatives from his party to notify the parent of the woman that their daughter has been taken and that their daughter is in a safe place, she will be protected and no harm will come to her. Any harms to the woman (sexual or nonsexual) during the 3-day period rests solely on the shoulder of man and his family. Because of the long commute to the groom's house in the old ways, Hmong culture dealt with the problem after when the groom's side return on the 4th day. The majority of the cases result in marriages after the kidnapping for fear that their daughter is no longer innocent. As part of the dowry settlement in the Hmong culture, the man usually has to compensate woman's family for the hardship he caused to the family. There were also many cases where the woman's parent will not demand a dowry from the man but simply a promise that he will care and love their daughter. There were also cases in the past where the marriage did not work out and some men complained that the dowry they paid for the woman was too high. The average dowry to compensate the bride's parent is about $7000-$8000 in cash value today. Yes, this is still happening today but in return, the bride's parent usually compensate their daughter with packages anywhere from as little as several thousands to upward of $50,000 or more to start her new life including automobile, gold, silver, gifts, cash, etc….

Fast forward to today: Kidnapping a bride is no longer accepted because the law of this land. If a woman is kidnapped against her will, all she has to do is call 911, simple and effective. The woman today can no longer be kidnapped against her will for marriage. Hmong men may be new to this country but they are not dumb.

To my Hmong colleagues, let's learn from this and move on. Let's not fault the professor for his ill informed information about our marriage custom. It's our job to educate the public about our history and tell it correctly and accordingly to the way we live. I don't know much about professor Kaplan but I do know that professor Kaplan's intention was to educate and challenge his students. Both sides win on this issue, we forgive, we learn and we move on.

To Professor Kaplan: If you ever need to learn more about the Hmong marriages, I would be more than happy to sit down with you. I can be reached at ehxiong@yahoo.com.

Eddie Xiong Woodbury, MN

Now we know the different side of the story but the truth is that it was offensive to the students.

I have been a professor on campus for over 30 years, I always to be caution to my students. I want to be sure my illustrations/examples are sensitive to my students. My goal as a professor is to give them the knowlege they need so they can be successful.

In light of this event, I agree that professor Kaplan needs to aplogize to Hmong students, Hmong community and the general public. Everyone makes mistakes and learn from it. We want UW-Madison to be institution that embrace diversity and creating the best environment and learning experiences to all students.

A faculty member on UW-Madison campus

Dear my friends (both Hmong & American):

It’s sad to see such thing like this happen at your campus. I felt sorry for both the professor and Hmong students but it’s time each of you need to come together and learn from each other. This is only way that you can resolve the situation (win-win situation). No more finger pointing and blaming each other.

Mediator

Wow….this is getting big!!! I am very concern as a alum from UW-Madison.

How is Chancellor Wiley respond to this? I think the Chancellor needs to interven with the situation before it become a national issue.

This is a great university. Madison has already been on the news in the last several years. This must be stopped and resovle at the appropriate level.

UW-Madison Alum ‘76

this is so absurd. I have to believe that the law prof was using stereotypes and was totally misunderstood. I can’t believe this has become a lightening rod for hmong people - there are far more pressing and real matters than an obvious comment made to teach a model of law. Is this really happening?

do you guys remember the prof that used the word “nig@#@Ly” in a lecture and was terminated shortly thereafter, although the word has no etimological connection to the pejorative used today- anyways, he was reinstated after that - i find that more obtuse that what kaplan did -kaplan understood what he was saying, and using it in teh process to teach how stereotypes affect the law. the other prof was just insensitive to the education level of the undergrad class - kaplan was teaching a class for a top 40 law class. I attend another university, and the prof uses slurs sometimes to teach the law, and none of the students have a big problem with it because it is understood that he is not a racist, and is merely teaching law at large . I think this reflects poorly on the caliber student that attends madison.

1. Regarding that Professor Kaplan intended to make a few good points in his lecture (about Hmong men, Hmong cultural marriage and the law, the failure of Wisconsin to help Hmong youths away from gangs, etc): Why did the professor have to use a few insulting, derogatory, snide, bad words first in order to make a few good points after?

If he wanted to make a few good points while giving out a lecture, couldn’t he just go straight and make them WITHOUT using a few bad, insulting words in the process?

By using a few bad, insulting, snide words prior to making a few good points, it’s like slapping a person right in the face before, and then out of good will, telling what others may have not done enough to help that person? Using a few bad, insulting words towards Hmong before showing what could be the problems or difficulties that Hmong experience?

Just because the professor, as he seemed to claim, tried to make a few good points, was it necessary for him to use a few insulting, bad, derogatory words first?

1. Why did it take the professor two weeks to come up with such a simple three-page defense letter? My gosh, he is a professor, it shouldn’t have taken him that long! An average college student, or even a high school student, can easily write a three-page essay in a matter of one hour or two! It should have taken the professor one or two hours the most.

Kashia Moua only circulated the email to the Leo group to be discussed. How the email leaked to the media is not known to anyone but the person who leaked it. Kashia Moua is the president of the Asian Law Student group and also of the general Asian student group at the UW Madison so she felt obligated to take this matter into her own hands.