like hip hop losers who don’t tip

If eliminating hip-hoppers will reduce the number of fights, then so be it. What do the protestors think they’re trying to accomplish? It’s not about race, it’s about culture. Hip-hop is a violent part of our culture, and quickly becoming passe as well.

If we banned young people who shot other people, we would also have de facto race discrimination. That doesn’t make it bad.

Black people can go to these bars just the same as white people. It’s just that those folks, black or white, who choose to dress down can find someplace else to go.

So black people have to dress out of culture to go to bars? I think many of you would be just as frustrated if they banned Abercrombie and Fitch, polo shirts, khakis, and trucker hats. Yes everybody has the ability to wear these things, but it’s obviously very pointed at a specific culture which is specific to a certain demographic of people.

White people are just if not more violent in all instances involving alcohol, they just don’t get headlined in the paper for it because it happens so often.

If these bars really wanted to curb violence, they would limit drinks, but god forbid they stop profiting from drunks, and god forbid white students don’t get their massive influx of beer and mixed drinks. I guess it’s really just f* everybody else, as long as YOU get your drink.

Hip-hop culture is NOT more violent, people just love to pick up on the violence that does occur. If the Halloween riots that happen EVERY YEAR were in correspondance with a hip-hop event, these same white students would be saying “See, they’re just violent, let’s keep them out of the city”, when instead, when it’s all white kids, it’s a celebrated event. Realize their is no real correlation between hip-hop/blacks and violence, at least not any more than there is with whites.

Thought you might be interested in an email message I compiled on this topic. Also, no one “shut down” anyone’s business, as Brothers was busy on Friday and Saturday night, and did a normal amount of business, dollar-wise (not every Friday and Saturday has a line; some do, some don’t). Also, jerseys for Wisconsin and opposing teams have ALWAYS been allowed on UW gamedays, though you didn’t much care about that.

Some of you may have heard of protests by a new group in Madison against two downtown bars for allegedly being racist, or, more specifically, having “racist” dress codes.

The two bars in question are Brothers and Johnny O’s. I have a special interest in Brothers, since I used to work there, and, I believe, still hold the record for most consecutive days spent in the bar (114). Yes, this was my old hangout, and I witnessed much of this situation unfold.

About 3 years ago, Brothers was looking for ways to increase business on normally slow weeknights. Brothers started “Wing Night” on Wednesday: as many ten cent wings as you can eat, from 9pm to close. They came in regular (hot) and “ass burner” (really really hot, but damned good). Word slowly spread, and more and more people started coming to Brothers - and drinking - on Wednesday nights. In Madison, various bars have always been busy on different nights. The KK on mug night (Mondays). The Echo on Sunday nights. Brothers became one of the “places to go” on Wednesday nights. Enough so, anyway, that it was busy all night long.

Brothers has always had an interesting mix of stuck up rich kids, townies, “east coasters”, and old men, but was mostly typical native Wisconsinite students. Brothers is not the type of bar you go to if you want to talk to someone, especially after 9pm. The music is too loud. It gets too crowded. It’s a completely different atmosphere in the afternoons. A couple regular faculty members come by. The owner of Bob’s Copy Shop. The chair of Integrated Liberal Studies. Some local crazies. Businessmen and women from Fluno Center conferences. Lon Schoor’s old antique wooden canoe hangs over the downstairs bar, apparently on permanent loan. But after 9pm, it’s a me{e,a}t market. Nonetheless, it was my “Cheers” for years.

As Wednesday nights started to get busier, it started to attract a small group of what could be described as “gangster”-types. These people were not affiliated with the University, and yes, were predominantly black. But that wasn’t a big deal, since there were always black people in Brothers. This clientele tended to apparently come for dinner, as it were. They’d order 250 wings, and not drink a drop of anything. Except maybe water. Then, some started coming in and getting 2, 3 and 400 wings to go. Brothers served them along with everyone else, for months.

Then the problems started.

They had been slowly getting worse. Fights would break out between the student clientele and these groups. Anyone involved would be kicked out, unless someone was felt to clearly be “at fault”. Often, no distinction is made and everyone fighting was kicked out. Then, fights started breaking out between rival groups. The police were regularly called on Wednesday nights. Sometimes by patrons, sometimes by the bar. The LAST thing the bar wants to do is call the police; police calls look bad before the ALRC. But when things got out of control, the police were called. There were fights in the parking lot behind Brothers (UW lot 3). There were gun calls in the parking lot, sometimes spilling over from Brothers, sometimes Bullwinkles/Club Amazon. A handful of times, weapons were brandished inside the bar.

The bar dealt with it the way they dealt with any fights: on an individual basis, based on behavior. But as the problems got worse, the bar looked for ways to deal with the situation.

One bouncer normally worked on Wednesday nights. Another was added. And another. And so on. Eventually, more bouncers were working on Wednesday nights than on Friday and Saturday nights.

And the problems got worse.

Brothers started charging a $5 cover for non-UW students on Wednesday nights, and required drink purchases with wings. This was decried as “racist” at the time as well.

But still, the problems escalated.

For over a year, Brothers tried to deal with the problems. The city grew concerned over the number of increasingly violent fights, and subsequent need for police response. Brothers grew concerned about its business.

The problems started to spill over onto Thursday and Friday nights. More and more students started staying away. Brothers started to get a reputation amongst new and returning students that next fall as a “ghetto bar”. Between the old Bullwinkles/Club Amazon and Brothers, Madison police usually had about 4 or 5 cruisers on University after 10pm Wednesday through Saturday.

Not ghetto because of the color. Ghetto because of the behavior.

So, about a year and a half ago, Brothers instituted a dress code:

All baseball caps must be worn directly to the front or back No glide caps/skull caps No jogging/workout suits No sleeveless shirts (for men) No sports jerseys (except Wisconsin or opposing team jerseys on UW gamedays, though this is not printed on the sign)

And:

No poor attitude No unruly behavior

That’s it, in its entirety. “Do rags” are not part of the dress code.

Enforcement was uniform. More white students were often barred from entrance than students of any minority group. But the problems stopped. Almost overnight, there were no more fights. No more police calls. No more problems, save the comparatively very occasional fights any campus bar has. The student clientele slowly started to return to its previous levels. EVERYONE was allowed access to the bar if they abided by the dress code. People were even given opportunities at the door: “straighten your hat, and you can come in”, “I see you’re wearing a T-shirt under your jersey; if you take off your jersey, you can come in”. The enforcement may not have been absolutely perfect, but every attempt was made for good-faith uniformity. The dress code put an end to the behavior, and the police and everyone else involved saw the massive effects of such a small change.

Last Friday and Saturday night from 10pm to midnight, about 30 to 35 protesters marched with signs in front of Brothers, chanting various slogans, and handing out flyers to anyone entering the bar explaining their position and suggesting alternative bars that aren’t “racist”. They don’t care about what happened before the dress code. All they can chant is “racist”. All but about 5 of the protesters in front of Brothers were white. I talked to about a half dozen of them…a couple actually could carry on an intelligent conversation. Others could only chant “JERSEY, JERSEY, JERSEY” when anyone wearing a UW jersey (it was a hockey night) left the bar - supposedly “proof” that the dress code didn’t apply to whites (even though UW jerseys have always been allowed to be worn anyone on any UW gameday). The “organizer”, Lonnie, was surprisingly uncommunicative (especially considering he’s in Brothers all the time drinking).

The best part was as all these folks were marching around with their signs, chanting “Hip Hop is not a crime” (apparently the dress code is targeted at the “Hip Hop culture”), or “Why aren’t brothers allowed in Brothers?”, several black guys and a few black girls walked in. Some of them I recognized as regulars; others I didn’t. The point is, on that night, and on any of the literally hundreds of others I’ve been there, no one has ever been barred because of race. None of the protesters I’d talked to (except Lonnie) had ever even been in Brothers. Lonnie never once talked to the manager or the owners. Who has he talked to? The bouncers. The people who have, quite possibly, the least influence over bar operations - yet he claims his attempts at dialogue were rebuffed. Correct, because bouncers have nothing to say about bar policy. It’s their job to enforce it.

Additionally, there was no word on how their own position didn’t itself perpetuate the stereotypes of black people all dressing in a particular fashion.

In any case, no one had any solutions to the problems for which the dress code was instituted (except one suggesting that perhaps it was the bar’s fault for the way it “dealt with” the situation, e.g., maybe it kept problems with white students “in house”, and chose to call the police on black fights; that is also untrue).

No one could explain how it was “racist” when more whites than non-whites were barred (other than to offer that there are a lot more white people).

No one could explain how the cover was racist, except to trumpet about how few black people were UW students (well, hmm, whose fault is that??!?! Seriously…)

In short, it was typical. No solutions, just complaints. No regard for the safety of other people in the bar when weapons started getting involved (except that Brothers and Johnny O’s should install metal detectors and search everyone who entered the bar, “like some clubs in Milwaukee” - and they were serious). Bullwinkle’s actually did, for a time, hire armed, bonded security guards, searched everyone entering the bar and had probably 20 to 30 security staff on duty. Is that the kind of operation a campus bar wants to run?

No one considered just abiding by the dress code, which didn’t do arbitrary or vague things like banning “baggy pants”. It banned specific instances where people were, for all practical purposes, were essentially “showing their colors”. And it solved the problem. And you can’t argue with success, especially when no PERSON is banned. (Well, apparently you can, as I was confronted with the question whether or not some people might have tried to defend slavery or Jim Crow laws in the same fashion.)

You might say, well, it wasn’t the clothing that was the problem. No, it wasn’t. But the clothing, in particular clothing elements widely used for displaying affiliations, was shared by about 95% of the trouble group. As was skin color. But there were a lot of blacks who could behave themselves who came into Brothers too. No, not “conform to the White man’s idea” of how they should act. But just act like a civilized person. If you want to act like an idiot, fine. If you want to argue over the pool table, fine. If you want to get 150 wings and not order any drinks, fine. But don’t pull guns, break bottles over peoples’ heads, and have your glorified gang wars in the bar.

So really what was barred was the behavior. Unfortunately, you can’t bar behavior before it happens. The dress code worked perfectly. ANYONE who still wanted to enter the bar could enter. Is it a perfect solution? Nope. What if the dress of the “hip hop culture” (ugh) changes? Well, we’ll cross that bridge when it comes. But frankly, it doesn’t have anything to do with the “hip hop culture”. It has to do with people acting like fucking assholes. And yes, there are plenty of drunk white guys in Badger gear who act like dumbasses on weekends. But they’re isolated incidents, where one or a couple people are involved. It’s occasional and controllable. And guns aren’t involved. In short, that argument is also complete crap.

They don’t want to look at what actually might be the root of the problem. They just want to point the finger everywhere else but themselves. I love guilty white people.

Only in Madison.

While we’re at it, can we PLEASE ban collar-up-wearing-douche-bags from bars too. Seriously, it would make my weekend so much better.

Suppose someone walked into the bar wearing one of those colorful African tribal outfits you see from time to time (though not around Madison). Would they be allowed in or kicked out? According to the dress code, they should be allowed in.

Now tell me how the dress code discriminates against black culture. African tribal dress is a real part of black culture; hip hop music is a preference common to many black people, but is surely not unique to black people, nor to black culture. It is, however, ubiquitous among the groups that have caused the vast majority of the problems at the two bars that were picketed.

As a black man, I applaud the actions taken by the two bars. I have no problem drinking in either bar and have never had a problem in either place as a result of the bars’ policies. I have, however, had problems with some of the “hip hoppers” before they were banned, and even had a gun pulled on me once.

The protesters in this case have no idea what they’re talking about. Rather than naively believing everything they hear, they should have done some research. They would have discovered that the policy didn’t discriminate against anyone but violent criminals and wannabe gangstas.

I will take 400 wings plz… lol

I think the most amusing thing I ever saw was Majestic doing an “all you can drink hip hop night.” I mean seriously, all you can drink is a bad enough idea in madison. lol

I will take 400 wings plz… lol

I think the most amusing thing I ever saw was Majestic doing an “all you can drink hip hop night.” I mean seriously, all you can drink is a bad enough idea in madison. lol

The anonymous comment from the black man, speaking about African tribal dress etc. sums up what everyone should look at and agree with…thank you for a very good comment and common sense…common sense being what these idiotic protesters obviously do not have!

well anybody that wears their hat in any other way besides forward and backward looks like a douchebag and deserves to not be allowed in.

“If these bars really wanted to curb violence, they’d limit drinks” is one of the stupider things I’ve seen posted in a long time.

I wouldn’t mind seeing some hard evidence (crime stats) between bars that offered hip-hop nights and violence. Anecdotally, at least, I make the connection, since I left Stillwaters about ten minutes before someone shot through the window.

I won’t completely denigrate hip-hop, but the culture has a real problem with violence (listen to the music) that it needs to confront. Until that happens more frequently, you can’t blame the bars for wanting to keep people who act violently out of their establishment.

“perpetuate the stereotypes of black people all dressing in a particular fashion.”

I knew that amoung liberals there was a “thought code” (“real” blacks are never conservative) but this is the first I’ve heard of a “dress code”.

Is the whole “pants around the ankles” thing part of the hip hop style? I have seen lots of white losers dressed this way too. If I owned a bar I’d ask them to pull their damn pants up.

It’s about behavior, not race.

I am still waiting on my 400 wings.

—WGWLW (White Guy Who Likes Wings)

Going into Brothers to order 400 wings to go and not buying anything else is so tacky—but something that doesn’t surprise me one bit. The people who do things like that make me sick.

I don’t think it’s up to the customer to say “ah this is a loss-leader, I must buy overpriced mixed drinks to compensate.”

No, but it’s still takcy, no matter how you look at it.

This protesting for the sake of protesting in Madison needs to stop. Seriously, either find a real cause to back or quit the foolishness.

I mean seriously, some of these places charge $4-7 (or more!) for a simple mixed drink—probably 20 cents of material and 5 cents of labor. And don’t forget to tip or you will get an extra skunky drink. I remember a girl who worked at Stillwaters and would brag about making $300 a night in tips. Well, someone else can contribute to that absurdity.

Beyond that, what’s with tipping if you just buy a bottle of beer? Really, I don’t tip the clerk at SA when I buy a pack of cigarettes!

Personally, I just almost never buy mixed drinks at bars anymore. I walk up to the bar, buy a beer, and never tip.

—400 wings and a beer, no tip lol

I think an article about bars, bartenders, costs, and tipping could be interesting. I am sure it has been done 1,000 times over, but with an angle it’s fun. Maybe Emily can write it…(with structure this time :P)

Like the above poster, I never really order mixed drinks. I order a bottle of beer and NEVER tip. I don’t get tipped for the work I do; how hard is it to make a drink? Someone post something about the rationale for tipping. Maybe you can convince me.

The only racists in this situation or those who associate a dress code with a certain race, example, FUBU to black people. I am white, and at one time in high school I wore FUBU pants. This is also when I used to smoke weed outside the school and get in fights. Strangely, when I cleaned my act up I don’t wear FUBU pants anymore or gold chains hanging past my already too low pants.

These are the same racists who will never refer to a black man as “black”, because they are African-American. Last I checked, I’m European-American, and I’m pretty damn sure no one has ever called me that. White people are white, black people are black, if you insist on using semantics to prove that you are an accepting person, you are not as bright as you think.

Now let’s think about what kind of people these protesters are. Upper-middle class whites who think it’s okay to parade around downtown with signs and chanting things when they should be drinking and having fun. Upper-middle class whites who, in high school, came home everyday to a big house with white picket fences miles away from the ghetto. Upper-middle class whites that upon entering this house after they’re long day of school and extra-curricular activities, are served a fresh meal by their housewife mother who is married to their father with a steady job. Then after dinner, they watch the news together as a family and comment on how unfair it is for black people to have suffer in poverty, and why can’t these black people be more like us?

It’s easy for these protesters to make this generalization because, just as I generalize about them, they have no clue what is going on with that faction of the population. It doesn’t feel good to be generalized, does it? But I’ll fight fire with fire and tell you why the things you do(protest, whine, complain, etc.) upset people. It is because you don’t know shit. You’ve most likely lived a sheltered and lucky life, because if you didn’t, you’d spend your time trying to make up for all the unlucky occurrences that have happened to you in your life, instead of fighting a cause that doesn’t need to be fought.

Therefore, it’s easy for you to say that clothing that makes you look ghetto is only worn by black people, because that is what you see on TV. What you don’t see is when you actually live in the ghetto(take a walk through one some time at night, just take the Rimrock road exit and follow it south, take your first right at the stop sign, and play in there for awhile), it’s not just black people wearing those clothes. But you don’t know that, because all the people you know are white and well-to-do and wouldn’t wear that.

The clothing, just as the hip-hop culture, appeals to POOR people. White, black, green, yellow, silver, and any other color you want to paint yourself, hip-hop inspires the new American dream. This new American dream is pretty opposite from what it used to be. The dream involves making money quick without any actual work, kind of like Get Rich or Die Tryin’. Because that’s what you get when you have a poor education system. And no, I don’t blame the poor education system on our President, I blame it on the liberals who allow the same people these protesters are trying to protect being allowed into our schools for the sole reason to cause fear. You can’t learn when the “thug” next to you is telling you he’s going to shoot you after school. Don’t believe it? It happened to me three times in high school. One of them even got arrested for opening fire on three kids on a bus… because he didn’t like how “taller kids thought they were the shit for being taller than him.” He was white and wore FUBU, and lived in the ghetto right next to me.

If you want to know what to protest against, I’ll tell you. You can protest against horrendous parenting. You can protest against anti-abortionists, because as morally wrong as it is, some people should not be having kids. If you are unemployed and didn’t graduate high school, you do not deserve to have a child. Because no matter what the movie Antwone Fisher told you, anyone in that situation is going to grow up to be a criminal, and pull guns at Brothers in downtown Madison.

You can’t protest, however, a business trying to make money by attracting a certain kind of people that create a safe environment that leads to profit. Because that is what America is, if you don’t like it, go somewhere else.

Also, for whoever said hip-hop culture is not more violent, let me show you some lyrics to a very popular hip-hop song that I believe hit #1 on the Billboard Rap charts awhile ago.

“So I’m outside the club, and you think I’m a punk, So I go to my loaded Tek-9 that’s up in the trunk, I told that mother **er, I ain’t never scared, I ain’t never scared, … I ain’t scared of you bitches, I’ll put your brain in stitches”

No, that’s not violent, it reminds me of Carebears and sunny days! I now return you to your normal ignorant liberal bullshit these newspapers feed to you. Welcome to Madison.

Liberalism, like hip-hop, is out. Using your brain and acting like you have some sense never went out of style. Go ahead and wear whatever you want. We really don’t care. Just let us have our places where we can go and not have to worry about putting up with your juvenile crap. Blacks are perfectly welcome at any bar in town. Gangs and anarchists, however, can just hang out on State Street like they have always done. Too bad, soooo sad.

“Like the above poster, I never really order mixed drinks. I order a bottle of beer and NEVER tip. I don’t get tipped for the work I do; how hard is it to make a drink? Someone post something about the rationale for tipping. Maybe you can convince me.”

First of all, the places we’re talking about here (Brothers and Johnny O’s) don’t charge $7 for a mixed drink. It’s more like under $4 (depending on what you’re getting).

Second, the bar industry is one of the service industries built upon tipping. No, you don’t HAVE to tip. But the bartenders usually make minimum wage, and the waitresses make waitstaff wage. At some bars, the bouncers also make minimum wage, and share in a percentage of the tips that come from the bar. They DEPEND on tips for a good portion of their income. If you don’t believe they’re doing a good job, don’t tip. If you believe you’ve received good service, tip 50 cents, or for a few drinks, a dollar - or more for large or complicated orders. If you want better service or special attention, tip more. My standard amount is a dollar per order, usually two drinks or more.

Unless you’ve worked in a tip-based service industry, don’t complain.

You don’t have to tip every single time you visit the bar. You can run a tab and consolidate your tip; usually it’s shared amongst the bartenders anyway. Or, make an effort to see the same bartender each visit to the bar, and tip every other order, or when you feel you’re getting good service.

If you want to be a fucking cheapskate and buy only bottled beer and never tip, be my guest.

Thank you, I will be a cheapskate.

If you aren’t making enough money see your employer, don’t harass me for it.

My God, the protests are getting even more idiotic since I left school 6 years ago; and I thought that’d be impossible.

Has that Multicultural Student group started demanding Mercedes Benzes for their staff so as to “improve the racial climate” on campus yet?

“Thank you, I will be a cheapskate.

If you aren’t making enough money see your employer, don’t harass me for it.”

So you don’t tip in any industry? Food waitservice, other waitstaff, taxis, car washes, etc.?

Tipped employees are a distinct statutory group. As of January 2005, in Madison, the regular minimum wage is $5.70. The “Tipped” minimum wage is $2.57. Not all tipped employees make the Tipped wage; however, many classes of service employees depend upon assumed tipping (given that a good job is being performed). Withholding tips, even completely, is acceptable for poor service.

Ref:

http://www.dol.gov/esa/programs/whd/state/tipped.htm http://www.ci.madison.wi.us/eoc/MinWage/MinimumWageFactSheet.pdf

Don’t over generalize. I said I feel it is BS to tip a bartender when you walk up to a bar and buy a bottle of beer. If others want to tip in that situation, that’s their thing, but I don’t.

No, I don’t tip at carwashes, why would I?

I only tip in situations that are a service industry requiring close attention to the customer who has to go out of their way to serve another personally. For example, a cab driver, a waitress, etc.

I tip at coffee shops if I buy a fancy drink, but not for coffee.

I know you disagree, but this should make some sense.

Personally, I wish it was like in the UK where service costs are worked into the prices and if you receive bad service you take it up with management.

I have worked several tipping jobs, including pizza delivery. I made $25 and hour delivering to the dorms and stuff—I thought it was absurd, but nice easy money.

Liberals want rights but do not want obligations or responsibilities. Grow Up!

I live in DC. For the record, many of the hot “black” clubs in DC have similar dress codes. I guess they are racist. I think these should send a bus of middle-class white kids from Wisconsin out here to protest this obviously racist behavior.

As an uninvolved observer, I just need to ask: why the hell would you want to drink with a bunch of alpha-male douchebags and skank-ass attention whores in the first place?

Oh yeah… you’re in Madison, WI…

I graduated and live in So Cal, every bar, hip hop club, etc out here has the same type of dress code, its not racist, and no one complains. Protests like this one hurt valid protests, because they have no basis.

What does the above post have to do with anything pertaining to this article or this issue?

Not directly above, but the one talking about alpha males, etc…

It’s yet more evidence of how stupid the protesters are.

Welcome to Madison where people protest to protest.

Are those wings at Brother’s any good? Do they still have them on Wednesdays?

I do hope they realize most people just think they look dumb.